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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2012-03 > 1331919306


From: Marcus McNeely <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Where does M222 come from?
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:35:06 -0400
References: <CAKWx04ScbeS6H0U=C8qXgRNM_z==gbLSzQoZ6=CkkD-FtiSPtg@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAKWx04ScbeS6H0U=C8qXgRNM_z==gbLSzQoZ6=CkkD-FtiSPtg@mail.gmail.com>


If the La Tène Culture formed the roots of M222, it would seem they may
have arrived before the M222 mutation occurred (e.g., DF23). Otherwise it
would have to be attributable to a huge bottleneck for obvious reasons of
SNP frequencies on the continent. The frequencies of DF23 on the continent
are of course in their infancy as far as sample populations are concerned,
but the statements about percentage of tests in these areas vs. the isles
deserves a closer look.

Gathering my 'recollection of reading' on their recorded arrival into
Ireland, they had much more social impact on the native people and culture
than genetic impact, and perhaps the current M222 frequency in Ireland and
the borderlands across the water forms a hypothesis to their legacy.

If, such a group of 'blow-ins' in all their minority, indeed had such a
profound cultural impact on a seemingly established indigenous population
(customs, language, art), perhaps they, through power and prolificacy,
caused the expansion of M222 if one of their offspring pioneered the
mutation.

Looking towards the end of this
article<http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/dna-blueprint-of-the-irish-revealed-2333700.html>;,
there is the following statement:

«Scientists estimate that Ireland's gene pool has changed remarkably little
since the first hunter-gatherers from Iberia followed the retreating ice
cap, beachcombing northwards and settling this newly exposed and empty
land. The dilution rate for Ireland is estimated at a tiny 12%, against 20%
for Wales and Cornwall, 30% for Scotland and 33% for England.

The genetics suggest that, with sea levels low, the Basques simply walked
to Ireland, becoming cut off generations later when rising seas created the
island we know. Ancient Irish legends say that there were six invasions or
migrations from the south many generations before the Celts arrived around
300BC.

The evidence suggests that the Celtic language, fashions and technologies
which are supposed to define our Irish heritage, were acquired as cultural
accessories in the way that today's Irish schoolkids flounce about under
the impression that they're gangsta rappers straight out of Compton or
Beverly Hills brat-packers.»

This is all interpretation, but it's very interesting nonetheless. Of
course the Basque theory is now somewhat in question due to the lack of
L21+ in the 'fatherland', but regardless of the geographical roots of the
indigenous population of the isles, there seem to be many sources stating
the arrival of these folks and their dazzling arts, wares, culture and
language. Does DF23 'follow the Spirals'???


On 16 March 2012 11:34, Mike Wdna <> wrote:

> What do you think of a La Tene connection?
>
> ---------- Quote from Jean Manco
>
> The Y-DNA haplogroup R1b-M222 is found in Northern Ireland, Lowland
> Scotland and Northern England and may reflect the arrival of La Tène
> in Ireland (see Surnames and Y-DNA). The swirling La Tène style
> continued to develop in Ireland after the Continental heartlands of La
> Tène and most of Britain were absorbed into the Roman sphere. As
> Ireland emerged from its centuries-long, climate-induced depression
> and embraced Christianity, the La Tène style blossomed in such
> masterpieces as the Book of Kells.
> ....
> The Irish annals from the 6th century AD refer to British people -
> Cruthin or Cruithni in Gaelic - in Ireland, particularly the
> north-east. 1The last use of the term Cruthin in Irish annals is in
> 773 AD. Were these the descendants of La Tène arrivals centuries
> earlier? We would expect newcomers to blend into Irish culture after a
> few generations, so that the sense of them as foreign would be lost.
> Perhaps there were successive waves of British arrivals in
> north-eastern Ireland, the earliest of which brought La Tène, but only
> the most recent of which were considered Cruthin in the 6th century
> AD.
>
> http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message --- From: Mike W
>
> My suggestion on finding M222's origins is to find its nearest
> brothers and then cousins. They are lineages of DF23* (L21+ DF23+
> M222-).
>
> Here are the ones I'm aware of from FTDNA public projects:
>
> 5 Ireland (Leinster, Ulster, Munster, Connacht)
> 3 France (Puitou-Charentes, Languedoc-Rossillon & Basse-Normandie)
> 1 Wales
> 1 England
> 1 Scotland
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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