DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2012-03 > 1331909404


From: Mike Wdna <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Where does M222 come from?
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 09:50:04 -0500
References: <mailman.23.1331881206.17584.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com><4F631E72.7080003@earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <4F631E72.7080003@earthlink.net>


I used Ken Nordtvedt's interclade TMRCA estimator to compare DF23*
Wales SW England versus M222; and then DF23 to its brother clades
DF21, L513/DF1, Z253 and Z255 along with Scots Modal people.

What I found is that the 23-14-WSW (Wales SW Eng) people broke away
from the pre-M222 people a long time ago, near the time of L21's
original expansion. Of course this also implies that the DF23 lineages
(one of which ended up being M222) broke away from the other parts of
L21 eaerly too. This is backed up by those interclade age estimates.

I tried to display this graphically here.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/RL21Project/files/Haplogroup_R-L21_Tree-Timeline.jpg

This should not be surprising. We know M222 has a distinct haplotype.
So far it appears that anyone in L21* that has a high DYS481 value
should consider testing for DF23. That seems to be the one consistency
between DF23* and M222.

I'd love to see all of the French and German L21* people test for DF23.

Mike W

---- Forwarded message ---------- From: Susan Hedeen

I would definitely agree with that.  Hopefully the FTDNA/MY Heritage
alliance will shake loose more European and Isles resident test
participants.  I've a theory on the high coalescence of M222+ among
some of the other L21 down streams in Ireland.  It isn't a popular
theory, but none the less one that is plausible and up for
investigation for proving or disproving.

Obviously "Celtic" (and I use the term broadly since our understanding
of these tribes via this designation is somewhat limited to Greek &
Roman references, linguistic studies, and popular histories and
fiction) societies were under great pressure in Europe both previous
to the Romans with the Roman Empire building exacting even more if not
a final push of these societies increasingly to the farthest reaches
of the Isles.

Post Roman occupation, further pressure from the Germanic
movements/invasions, the extreme Viking assaults and invasions, the
Norman movements and the subsequent cultural/political evolutions.  It
is premature to suggest that any of these invading forces were totally
homogenous in DNA, either, even if their predominate genetic make-up
likely included high percentages of I1 and other R1b footprints.

Ireland is unique in many regards, and as such the last great frontier
to speak previous to the Americas in terms of westward migration.
Although Ireland suffered its own pressures via cultural/territorial
war, invasion, climate anomalies, disease, famine, etc., to the
greater extent it wasn't touched much by the Romans, the Continental
wars, or even the greater conflicts of WWI & II beyond those who
entered the fray off island, thus the various populations had a better
than equal chance of survival with less displacement.

We do not yet know the disposition of "origin" for some of these
downstream L21+ sub-clades so prevalent among the descendants who
either claim or reside in Ireland, Scotland, and the Isles in general
(Britain, Wales, and barrier Islands), but the evidences are in the
DNA, and as testing and analysis continues our understanding will
likely increase.  Susan

--- On 3/16/2012 3:00 AM, From: Mike W

> I think the normal answer is Northwest Ireland or the Scottish
> Lowlands since that is where it is so frequent.
>
> My suggestion on finding M222's origins is to find its nearest
> brothers and then cousins. They are lineages of DF23* (L21+ DF23+
> M222-).

This thread: