DNA-R1B1C7-L ArchivesArchiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2012-01 > 1326022716
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nial Icon
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 06:38:36 -0500 (EST)
To give you an example of what I mean, the Cenel Lugdach are said to be an
offshoot of the Cenel Conaill. Lugdach, according to the pedigrees was the
great grandson of Conal Gulban. The Cenel Lugdach emerge into the written
record about 10 generations after Ludgach, when Maelruanaidh Ua Domhnaill,
lord of Cinel-Luighdheach, was slain by the men of Magh-Ithe in 1011. By
then, the Ua Domnall were petty kings or lords of the Cenel Lugdach. 10
generations earlier, Lugdach was the brother of Ainmire mac Setna, king of the
Cenel Conaill in the west of Ulster.
If it takes 6 generations to form a cenel and allowing for a few
generations overlap, what would be a reasonable timeframe for the common ancestor of
the Cenel's Conaill and Eoghan?
What is your estimate?
In a message dated 08/01/2012 01:08:49 GMT Standard Time,
U563.1 ... Cenél nEógain and Cenél Conaill were hired, being given the Lee
and Ard Eolarg as recompense.
1] Weapons press forward, men press forward
2] In the great bog of Daire Lothair,
3] A cause of strife discomfited
4] Around the king of the Cruithin, Aed Brecc.
1] The battle of all the Cruithin is fought,
2] They burn Eilne;
3] The battle of Gabar Liphi is fought,
4] And the battle of Cúil Dreimne.
1] Hostages are taken away after conflict,
2] Away west, with a human harvest(?)
3] By Forgus, Domnall. Ainmire,
4] And Nainnid son of Daui.
1] Mac Erca's two sons returned
2] In the same manner;
3] The king Ainmire came back
4] With the possessions of Sétna.
1] Splendidly moves
2] Baetán's steed upon the host;
3] Well satisfied is Baetán of the yellow hair,
4] It will carry its little load(?) upon it.
> Ainmire mac Setna and Naindid mac Duach are said to descend from Conal
> Gulban and both appear to be separate kings within the Cenel Conaill.
> to the genealogies, Setna and Duach were grandsons of Conaill and
> therefore great grandsons of Niall, whose obit varies depending on what
> follow. His death is usually assigned to some date in the 400s, when
> Francis Byrne suggests Niall should have died not earlier than 450 AD.
The sons of Mac Erca are also great-grandsons of Neill, same as Ainmire
and Naindid (who where cousins of Colmcille). For MacErca is also known as
Muirchertach mac Muiredaig (mac Eogain mac Niall) (b.480’s - d.534), whose
ally was Lugaid mac Lóegairi his cousin and fellow grandson of Niall. However
there is a big question mark or assumption that Muirchertach MacErca is
named for his mother. Cenel MacErca were the dominant branch of the Cenél
nEógan by the middle of the 8th century
> Here is the dilemma, the Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill were already
> established cenels in 563. I understand, it takes a minimum of six
> to form a cenel. In addition, there must have been a short period of
> overlap with the ancestors of the Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill when
> themselves were members of the mother cenel, before it subdivided.
> How then can you have two cenels in 563 with the military capacity to
> themselves out as mercenary soldiers only descend within 6 generations
> a common ancestor - Niall of the Nine Hostages?
Not sure about Cenel, however I have no problem with princes leading their
warbands, or even like Eochaidh Find (3rd century) being captains of the
Deisi (vassal) people (recorded c600).
As for the location for the land granted to them MacNeill tells that: [He]
take Ard Eolarg to be the ancient name of the territory north of Lei,
projecting into Loch Febail at the place now called Magilligan. The parish of
Magilligan in co Londonderry is across the Loch Foyle from Inishowen. These
are lands of the Ciannacht. By the single block land grant I would say
Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill where still one people.
The entry U572.1 records the death of descendants of MacErca in
The slaying of two descendants of Muiredach i.e. Baetán son of
Muirchertach and Echaid son of Domnall son of Muirchertach Mac Erca, in the third year
of their reign. Crónán son of Tigernach, king of the Ciannachta of Glenn
Geimin, was their slayer.
The four great-grandsons appear in U561.1 defeating another great grandson
due the murder of the son of the king of Connacht who was under the
protection of another great-grandson of Niall, i.e. Saint Colmcille, who sails
for Iona in the year of the second battle in 563.
U561.1: The battle of Cúil Dreimne, in which 3000 fell, won over Diarmait
son of Cerball. Forgus and Domnall, two sons of Mac Erca, i. e. two sons of
Muirchertach son of Muiredach son of Eógan son of Niall, and Ainmire son
of Sétna, and Nainnid son of Daui, were victors, with Aed son of Eochu
Tirmcharna, king of Connacht. They prevailed through the prayers of Colum Cille.
The battle was fought in Sligo, so Northern Ui Neill are based in Ulster
at this time?
Aed son of Eochu Tirmcharna, king of Connacht is Aedha m. Echach
tirmcharna (d.c566) m. Fergusa m. Muiredaigh mail m. Eogain Srebh m. Duach galaig
(d.c500) m. Briain m. Echach Muigmedoin and so is the
great-great-great-great-grandson of Brian (Ui Briun -> O'Connor) and said brother or cousin of
Wikipedia says: Prof. Byrne doubts the legitimacy of the early Ui Briun
genealogies and even goes so far as to doubt that these early Ui Briun kings
were even of this branch. He cites the reference in the annals to the death
of Aed in 575 who is said to be killed by the Ui Briun and to a reference
in the Annals of Innisfallen that he gave Enach Dúin (Annaghdown on
L.Corrib) to Saint Brendan of Clonfert. He doubts that a ruler from the Mag nÁi
region would be able to make this gift. Charles-Edwards on the other hand
believes that the Ui Briun were set up in Connacht by Diarmait mac Cerbaill as
a balance to the Ui Fiachrach before Aed joined the alliance against him.
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