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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2012-01 > 1325984879


From: Bernard Morgan <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Nial Icon
Date: Sun, 8 Jan 2012 01:07:59 +0000
References: <f8ed.4ecbe5e4.3c39d2d8@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <f8ed.4ecbe5e4.3c39d2d8@aol.com>


U563.1 ... Cenél nEógain and Cenél Conaill were hired, being given the Lee and Ard Eolarg as recompense.
1] Weapons press forward, men press forward
2] In the great bog of Daire Lothair,
3] A cause of strife discomfited
4] Around the king of the Cruithin, Aed Brecc.
1] The battle of all the Cruithin is fought,
2] They burn Eilne;
3] The battle of Gabar Liphi is fought,
4] And the battle of Cúil Dreimne.
1] Hostages are taken away after conflict,
2] Away west, with a human harvest(?)
3] By Forgus, Domnall. Ainmire,
4] And Nainnid son of Daui.
1] Mac Erca's two sons returned
2] In the same manner;
3] The king Ainmire came back
4] With the possessions of Sétna.
1] Splendidly moves
2] Baetán's steed upon the host;
3] Well satisfied is Baetán of the yellow hair,
4] It will carry its little load(?) upon it.

> Ainmire mac Setna and Naindid mac Duach are said to descend from Conal
> Gulban and both appear to be separate kings within the Cenel Conaill. According
> to the genealogies, Setna and Duach were grandsons of Conaill and
> therefore great grandsons of Niall, whose obit varies depending on what theory you
> follow. His death is usually assigned to some date in the 400s, when
> Francis Byrne suggests Niall should have died not earlier than 450 AD.

The sons of Mac Erca are also great-grandsons of Neill, same as Ainmire and Naindid (who where cousins of Colmcille). For MacErca is also known as Muirchertach mac Muiredaig (mac Eogain mac Niall) (b.480’s - d.534), whose ally was Lugaid mac Lóegairi his cousin and fellow grandson of Niall. However there is a big question mark or assumption that Muirchertach MacErca is named for his mother. Cenel MacErca were the dominant branch of the Cenél nEógan by the middle of the 8th century

> Here is the dilemma, the Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill were already
> established cenels in 563. I understand, it takes a minimum of six generations
> to form a cenel. In addition, there must have been a short period of
> overlap with the ancestors of the Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill when they
> themselves were members of the mother cenel, before it subdivided.
>
> How then can you have two cenels in 563 with the military capacity to hire
> themselves out as mercenary soldiers only descend within 6 generations of
> a common ancestor - Niall of the Nine Hostages?

Not sure about Cenel, however I have no problem with princes leading their warbands, or even like Eochaidh Find (3rd century) being captains of the Deisi (vassal) people (recorded c600).

As for the location for the land granted to them MacNeill tells that: [He] take Ard Eolarg to be the ancient name of the territory north of Lei, projecting into Loch Febail at the place now called Magilligan. The parish of Magilligan in co Londonderry is across the Loch Foyle from Inishowen. These are lands of the Ciannacht. By the single block land grant I would say Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill where still one people.

The entry U572.1 records the death of descendants of MacErca in Londonderry:
The slaying of two descendants of Muiredach i.e. Baetán son of Muirchertach and Echaid son of Domnall son of Muirchertach Mac Erca, in the third year of their reign. Crónán son of Tigernach, king of the Ciannachta of Glenn Geimin, was their slayer.

The four great-grandsons appear in U561.1 defeating another great grandson due the murder of the son of the king of Connacht who was under the protection of another great-grandson of Niall, i.e. Saint Colmcille, who sails for Iona in the year of the second battle in 563.
U561.1: The battle of Cúil Dreimne, in which 3000 fell, won over Diarmait son of Cerball. Forgus and Domnall, two sons of Mac Erca, i. e. two sons of Muirchertach son of Muiredach son of Eógan son of Niall, and Ainmire son of Sétna, and Nainnid son of Daui, were victors, with Aed son of Eochu Tirmcharna, king of Connacht. They prevailed through the prayers of Colum Cille.

The battle was fought in Sligo, so Northern Ui Neill are based in Ulster at this time?

Aed son of Eochu Tirmcharna, king of Connacht is Aedha m. Echach tirmcharna (d.c566) m. Fergusa m. Muiredaigh mail m. Eogain Srebh m. Duach galaig (d.c500) m. Briain m. Echach Muigmedoin and so is the great-great-great-great-grandson of Brian (Ui Briun -> O'Connor) and said brother or cousin of Niall.
Wikipedia says: Prof. Byrne doubts the legitimacy of the early Ui Briun genealogies and even goes so far as to doubt that these early Ui Briun kings were even of this branch. He cites the reference in the annals to the death of Aed in 575 who is said to be killed by the Ui Briun and to a reference in the Annals of Innisfallen that he gave Enach Dúin (Annaghdown on L.Corrib) to Saint Brendan of Clonfert. He doubts that a ruler from the Mag nÁi region would be able to make this gift. Charles-Edwards on the other hand believes that the Ui Briun were set up in Connacht by Diarmait mac Cerbaill as a balance to the Ui Fiachrach before Aed joined the alliance against him.





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