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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-12 > 1324576847
From:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Ulster
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:00:47 -0500 (EST)
John
Apologies for the delay in replying. With a family of four, Xmas is now a
priority.
To explain, in October Paul and Sandy exchanged comments about the
likelihood of a SNP downstream of M222+ and Sandy replied with an interesting
comment, 'that he thought M222+ is highly unlikely to be much more than about
50 generations 'old' and that it is therefore possible that any SNP's
downstream of M222 may be classified as 'private' by whoever makes these
decisions'. If the mutation rate of SNP markers is extremely slow (according to
FTDNA's own webpage, mutations are rare and happen at a rate of approximately
one mutation every few hundred generations), the likelihood of one
occurring downstream in this generation seems even lower if the M222+ is only 50
generations old.
I really do hope one is found and if not, those on this forum who are
following the DF23+ M222- marker trail, find another way round to identify the
possible origins of M222 SNP.
Bill Howard in his recent article on 'A Dated Phylogentic Tree of M222'
drew an interesting conclusion by writing, a 'lack of attention to possible
concentrations of the M222 SNP in Scotland and a lack of definition to how
the Ui Neill descendants can be differentiated from carriers of M222 SNP,
have hindered research into its place of origin as well as finding meaningful
ties to Niall and his Ui Neill descendants as a separate entity from the
descendants of the M222 progenitor'. Not everyone might necessarily agree
with his estimated age of the M222 SNP, but I do think his concluding
comments are absolute right.
At the weekend, I took a trawl down through R-M222 Results page and
counted about 766 results, which represents about 275 different surnames. Out of
the figure of about 766, 37 pre-dated 1700 and out of this only 5 predated
1600. It should also be noted there are a number results without any date.
Of the 5 that pre-date 1500, I have taken a 'wee' bit of license and
included the McDowell 22277, who claims to be descended from Fergus de Galloway
(which of course, is not proven). I known from other research, which I
have shared offline, his DNA matches closely another McDowell, whose paper
trail is sound back to the early 1600s and connects with McDowell of
Garthland in Wigtownshire. The Milligan 10045 result that pre-dates 1600 has no
information on the results page, but this one is well established. Coursey
162923 is traced to Dublin c.1596 another 15281 is without any place of
origin. Hare 71096 is dated from 1529. This result was surprising to me, as it
is traced from a very old family in Kilbarchan, Renfrewshire, Scotland, a
contemporary with Milligan 10045 in Dumfriesshire. This is interesting, as
the Hare result is within reach of the old Ahare family of Ayrshire, who date
from the late 1400s. Potentially, we now have two "A" type surnames in
Scotland going back into the 1400s.
Arguably you could also include the Ewing and O'Docherty clusters and of
course your own surname. As you know there already exists a proven paper
trail for the chief family of O'Docherty from Spain to Co. Cavan in the 1600s.
The only copy of the DNA test I have is a 37 marker test (do you know if
it has been extended?). This one holds a pedigree that follows the chief
line from Co. Cavan back to the Cenel Conaill in Co. Donegal. I must admit,
it has been awhile since I looked that this pedigree on my own website, so
there may be new information on it that I am not aware of. The O'Docherty
lineage can be reached on the following link and is on the right column on
the bottom section:
_Cenel Conaill Pedigree_
(http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~alanmilliken/Research/IrishRecords/Miscellaneous/CenelConaill-Pedigree.html
)
Looking at this pedigree traced from Cathaoir O'Dogherty (I am aware there
may be gaps earlier), Sandy's estimate of 50 generations isn't far of the
mark. As you know in offline discussions, the Milligan/Milliken-Grierson
DNA suggests the common ancestor here, is almost certainly over 30
generations ago and is localized in Mid Nithsdale prior to AD 1100. If the estimate
of 50 generations (allowing for marginal errors), 20 generations back to a
common ancestor from Nithsdale isn't that long by any estimate. Do we have
two identifiable subgroups with the M222 haplogroup? I think the answer is
Yes.
I am wondering, if there are at least two identifiable subgroups, each
with a potential to generate another SNP, each also has the potential to
mirror certain mutations, but equally to hold unique marker mutations, is there
scope to expand on this!
I have another suggestion, which I will discuss offline.
Happy Xmas and New Year when it comes
Alan
In a message dated 19/12/2011 02:32:37 GMT Standard Time,
writes:
In a message dated 12/18/2011 2:34:56 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
There are those on this forum who have studied the Irish and Scottish
element (and I include John whose contribution to this Project has been
exemplary), I am seriously asking that we find away round the M222 SNP. I
think I
have one way, but I am reluctant to make any kind of statement about it
online.
Alan, I'm not sure what you mean by find a way around the M222 SNP
either.
John
R1b1c7 Research and Links:
http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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