DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-12 > 1324082731

From: "Marie Kerr" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Ulster
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 19:50:32 -0500
References: <cd09.64a1a4ed.3c1cdf7e@aol.com><SNT128-W49762C1257E52CD000AEBBBBA00@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <SNT128-W49762C1257E52CD000AEBBBBA00@phx.gbl>

A very good point. I have regularly been amazed by the importance people on
this list have given to religion as being a marker of ethnicity. As a
granddaughter of Irish Catholics (my father's side, James J. Golden, whose
DNA is part of this group) and the granddaughter of an English Protestant
+ Irish Catholic, I know how fungible this all is. My father's name was
known to be Anglicized.

I hope that in my lifetime the R-M222 "test" is given to a wide swath of
Ireland, Scotland and England. And I dearly hope that testing to the 111
level clearly identifies those markers that change slowly vs. those that
change quickly. Only then will we know the truth of our research.

Marie Golden Kerr (daughter of James J. Golden)

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 5:21 PM
To: dna-r1b1c7
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Ulster

I think there is a dangerous simplification at work in the regard to the
identification of ethnicity. Would a 17th century poor Gaelic speaking
Catholic Scot be deemed by an official as a Scot/English and a wealth
English speaking Presbyterian with Irish ancestry be an Irishman?

Quoting from "Ireland from Independence to Occupation, 1641-1660":
"Sometimes the familiar denominations of Catholic and Protestant served as
an easy shorthand, especially after 1641 when race and confession had
seemingly converged to rivet the Irish to popery and the English and Scots
to Protestantism."

Wouldn't the Catholic Scot be better recorded as an Irish Papist, the Irish
Presbyterian as a Scottish Presbyterian? For we are also talking about the
law: Presbyterian was only officially a Church for the Scottish; if you
where of Church of Ireland then you where an Englishman and a follower of
the Church of England; if you Catholic you where an Irish papist.

I also I have no idea how surnames can be used identify the ethnicity? It
known that the Irish Anglized their surname into Scottish, Welsh and English
forms before and after the Ascendancy.

R1b1c7 Research and Links:

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

This thread: