DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

From: Bernard Morgan <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NEW THREAD DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256
Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2011 16:21:27 +0000
References: <mailman.64.1313844522.803.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>,<4E4FDEE5.4020301@earthlink.net>
In-Reply-To: <4E4FDEE5.4020301@earthlink.net>

Is the surname McConnaughey related to McConnaughtey from Mac Connachtaigh? An old Breifney family, still well represented in Cavan. Flann Ó Connachtaigh was Bishop of Kilmore in the early part of the 13th century? (From Woufle's Irish Names and Surnames 1923.)




> Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 12:20:53 -0400
> From:
> To:
> CC: ; ; ; ; ; ; ;
> Subject: NEW THREAD DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256
>
> Indeed, this is what they say. It does seem a bit more complicated than
> all of that, too which is all evidenced now by the M222 dna of the 14
> McC's who have tested under the Clan Donnachaidh project.
>
> 11 of the 15 fall into 3 separate M222 groups:
> M222 Group A --Presently the largest group includes the 1 off model 392
> = 15, 389-2 = 28. This group of 5 also includes 1 current resident of
> Antrim (anecdotal stories of this family include migration of 3
> brothers from Isle of Bute to Antrim during the plantation days).
> 2 (of this group of 5) immigrant ancestors hopped the pond to PA during
> the mid-1700's, while immigration time of the other two is unknown to
> the project. There are 5 variant spellings in this group of 5 (although
> with this name one should never classify by spelling). Of the 5 the off
> model signature appears to be the oldest.
>
> M222 Group B Presently has 2 tested members and 2 spellings. 1 of the
> two appears to have a signature older than the Nial group of 4 and older
> than the A group of 5. Group A & B quite probably intersected in the
> ancient past.
>
> M222 Nial Group has 4 tested members and 2 variant spellings considered
> classically and exclusively Scot spellings of McConkey and McConchie.
> This Nial group isn't even remotely related to the other 7 M222,
> although there may be an intersection with the oldest of the Group B
> signatures even farther back than that intersection with group A --
> maybe. As previously mentioned, it appears that one of the M222 group B
> signatures is oldest among these M222.
>
> 2 different phylogenetic trees using two different analytical models
> have been applied to these M222 McCs with the results about the same.
>
> The other 3 McC's of this project fall into 3 separate groups:
> 1 is an R1b which is probably M222 but only 12 markers tested, and it
> could be an on site Scotland sample as the project is actively testing
> in both Ireland and Scotland.
> 1 other McC is E1b1b1 male progenitor probably Roman, none the less the
> issue were associated with one of the later known clans.
> 1 other Mcc is I1 and has a signature similar to some I1 Robertson(s) in
> the project.
>
> No genealogical relatedness has been identified among any of the McC's
> in the project, and several have their genealogies solid back into the
> 1st quarter of the 1700's.
>
> Now of further interest is the fact that McC M222 group A intersects
> with Duncan Group B (also M222) of the Donnachaidh project. There are
> too many close matches to count. This group consists of about 36/7
> Duncan, several Ashly, a couple of Davis (probably originally Davisson
> of Davidson), Lawson, McAinich, McKinney, Gallagher, Mann, Murphy, and
> others and if I missed any not intentional.
>
> The McC's are interesting because as Mr. Ashley's note suggests the name
> is affiliated with several clans and what the victorian era decided to
> classify as septs. Those of the name marched with the Bruce, held
> leadership positions in both Campbell and Robertson, held the deed to
> Isle of Bute for over 300 years, and fled to (or back to) Ireland during
> the 1600's remaining there to immigrate out.
>
> It is interesting presently among the M222 definitions as well due to
> the fact that of the very small testing pool of 14 thus far 11 are M222
> but fall into 3 separate M222 groups. Statistically, I believe this
> could be useful. I've been trying to sell that idea to John & Bill for
> further research, but they have not become interested yet.
>
> Some McCs also remained in Scotland post plantation years to Immigrate
> out or be transported out by the English during the 1700's as they were
> annihilating the clan system. The name is yet prevalent in both
> Ireland and Scotland today yet as a surname much in the minority to the
> more popular versions more anglicized such as Duncan which is actually a
> Saxon derivative, Robertson, Reid, etc -- and surname usage is another
> topic. Hard to find any 2 McCs who spell their name the same sometimes
> even in the same genetically related family. Susan
>
> On 8/20/2011 8:48 AM, wrote:
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in
> > Pittsburgh ()
> > 2. Re: A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library
> > in Pittsburgh (tuulen)
> > 3. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 M222 (Robert Reid)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 07:11:42 EDT
> > From:
> > Subject: [R-M222] A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie
> > Library in Pittsburgh
> > To:
> > Message-ID:<>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> >
> >
> > The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a
> > family of
> > Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient
> > records
> > in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in
> > Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive
> > me for
> > not keeping the book name for reference) ???The MacConaghy, MacConkey,
> > MacDonagh,
> > Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal
> > name
> > Donnchadh, meaning ???brown warrior??? (from donn and cath). This gives
> > the personal
> > names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the MacDonaghs,
> > Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a
> > branch of
> > the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac
> > Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In
> > Co
> > Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh Ceallach
> > Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth
> > century.
> > However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally
> > well
> > known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat
> > Duncan
> > (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in
> > the
> > fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314.
> > The
> > MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan Robertson,
> > their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ???h??? after
> > the ???D??? makes
> > it silent, thus sounding as Mac???onachie.) Also, after the 1745
> > rebellion, many
> > members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their
> > identity.
> > There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which,
> > the
> > MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the
> > fourteenth-century
> > Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies
> > descend from
> > the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second
> > wife.
> > There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In
> > Ulster all
> > this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also
> > an
> > Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of
> > Donachie
> > and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as
> > well as
> > Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty,
> > MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn.
> > Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim.
> > Donaghy
> > is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties
> > Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.???
> > Some McConnaghy???s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider
> > themselves
> > Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both,
> > considering that
> > the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient
> > times, and
> > MacConahy???s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention
> > that many
> > moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer
> > to
> > say Scotch-Irish for most of us.
> > Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay,
> > McConaughy,
> > McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea,
> > MacConahie,
> > MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie,
> > McConaghy,
> > McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc.
> > This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one particular
> > family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found
> > under half
> > a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was
> > always
> > spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no
> > idea how
> > to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the
> > scribe who
> > wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled.
> > Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your
> > particular
> > spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a
> > future
> > newsletter
> >
> >
> > _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_
> > (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html)
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:19 -0400
> > From: tuulen<>
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie
> > Library in Pittsburgh
> > To:
> > Message-ID:
> > <CABbuToz9TDhhkcKgySwfQPFOsa3ZdoOX3gBjOZ2O17iSa=>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > Your name is Ashley? My maternal grandmother's name was Ashley, from New
> > Bedford, Massachusetts.
> >
> > Doug
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 20, 2011 at 7:11 AM,<> wrote:
> >
> >> The history of this ancient Perthshire family traces its ancestry as a
> >> family of
> >> Dalriadian origin before the year 1100 and appears first in the ancient
> >> records
> >> in Perthshire. A book on Ulster surnames, found at the Carnegie Library in
> >> Pittsburgh, gives the following information on the name: (please forgive
> >> me for
> >> not keeping the book name for reference) ???The MacConaghy, MacConkey,
> >> MacDonagh,
> >> Donaghy and Duncan names all stem from the Scots and Irish Gaelic personal
> >> name
> >> Donnchadh, meaning ???brown warrior??? (from donn and cath). This gives
> >> the personal
> >> names Donagh in Ireland and Duncan in Scotland. In Ireland, the
> >> MacDonaghs,
> >> Gaelic Mac Donnchadha, are most numerous in Connacht where they are a
> >> branch of
> >> the MacDermots. A variant of MacDonagh in counties Tyrone and Derry is Mac
> >> Donnchaidh, which was anglicised first to MacDonaghy and then Donaghy. In
> >> Co
> >> Fermanagh, it is thought that most Donaghys descent from Donnchadh
> >> Ceallach
> >> Maguire, who led the Maguire conquest of Clakelly in the mid-fifteenth
> >> century.
> >> However, the Scottich Clan Robertson of Atholl in Perthshire was equally
> >> well
> >> known as Clan Donnachie, Gaelic Clann Donnchaidh, after its chief Fat
> >> Duncan
> >> (Donncha Reamhar) de Atholia who lived at the time of Robert the Bruce in
> >> the
> >> fourteenth century and led the clan at the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314.
> >> The
> >> MacConachies (also MacConaghy and MacConkey) were a sept of Clan
> >> Robertson,
> >> their family name in Gaelic being Mac Dhonnchaidh. (the ???h??? after
> >> the ???D??? makes
> >> it silent, thus sounding as Mac???onachie.) Also, after the 1745
> >> rebellion, many
> >> members of Clan Robertson adopted the name Donachie to conceal their
> >> identity.
> >> There were also several MacConochie septs of Clan Campbell, one of which,
> >> the
> >> MacConachies of Inverawe in Argyllshire, descend from the
> >> fourteenth-century
> >> Duncan or Donachie Campbell of Lochow. The Clan Gregor MacConachies
> >> descend from
> >> the three sons of Duncan, seventeenth chief of MacGregor, by his second
> >> wife.
> >> There was also an old sept of Macconachies on the island of Bute. In
> >> Ulster all
> >> this becomes very complicated. As has already been stated, Donaghy is also
> >> an
> >> Irish name. Duncan, though a Scottish name used as an aglicisation of
> >> Donachie
> >> and MacConachie, has also in Ulster been used for the Irish Donaghy, as
> >> well as
> >> Donegan and Dinkin. MacConaghy has been noted as a synonym for Conaty,
> >> MacConaughty, MacConnerty and even Quinn.
> >> Within Ulster, MacConaghy and MacConkey are mostly found in Co. Antrim.
> >> Donaghy
> >> is most common in counties Antrim, Derry and Tyrone and Duncan in counties
> >> Antrim and Tyrone. MacDonagh is most numerous in Fermanagh.??
> >> Some McConnaghy???s believe themselves to be Irish, some consider
> >> themselves
> >> Scotch. My theory is that, obviously, we can be either or both,
> >> considering that
> >> the area called Ulster included both Scotland and Ireland in ancient
> >> times, and
> >> MacConahy???s and variants are found across that land. Not to mention
> >> that many
> >> moved from Ireland to Scotland to escape certain wars. I think it is safer
> >> to
> >> say Scotch-Irish for most of us.
> >> Some variations of our name include: McConnaughey, McConnaughay,
> >> McConaughy,
> >> McConnaughhay, McConahy, McConnahie, McConaha, McConahay, McConahea,
> >> MacConahie,
> >> MacConaghy, McConaghy, McConnaghy, McConaty, McConnaghty, McConachie,
> >> McConaghy,
> >> McConaghie, McConaughey, McConahey, McConahe, etc.
> >> This variety of spellings, above, does not confine itself to one
> >> particular
> >> family. Indeed, any one particular McConnaughy family, could be found
> >> under half
> >> a dozen or more spellings, so it is no good insisting that a name was
> >> always
> >> spelled a certain way. People often could not read or write, so had no
> >> idea how
> >> to spell their own name. It depended on the whim, or knowledge of the
> >> scribe who
> >> wrote it down, as to how it might be spelled.
> >> Should any of you have additional information on the name, or your
> >> particular
> >> spelling, please pass along the information so that we can share it in a
> >> future
> >> newsletter
> >>
> >>
> >> _http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html_
> >> (http://genforum.genealogy.com/mcconnaughey/messages/190.html)
> >>
> >> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >>
> >> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> >> -------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 08:48:41 -0400
> > From: "Robert Reid"<>
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255 M222
> > To:<>
> > Message-ID:<000301cc5f37$7d8526e0$788f74a0$@insight.rr.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> >
> > Perhaps one of the best cases for West to East migration is Colum Cille
> > (gaelic Dove of the Chuch, Iona - Hebrew Dove& Latin Columba Dove). I tried
> > to put down my purported connection. Unfortunately the arrows did not
> > transfer!!! So sorry. Adomnan (founder of Dull Monastery in Atholl) 7th
> > century states Columba was the son of Feidlimid, and great grandson of
> > Conall Gulban. We know he went to Iona ~ 563 AD and the Kindred of Columba
> > (12 men who went with him, although a couple on his mother's side) were the
> > ancestors of Clan Donnachaidh in the Atholl, part of Perth. These early
> > Abbots married& had children in the kindred. I have Crinan (Kindred of
> > Columba) to Alexander Robertson (who started the Reid sept ~ 1450 AD)
> > straight back to Cenell Conaill. This is classic West to East from Donegal.
> > As to the 2 epicenters of M222 in Ireland, my thoughts are that one was from
> > the northern Ui Neills (16.7% Trinity study) and the other from the brothers
> > of Niall at Connacht (10% epicenter Trinity study). No other epicenters in
> > Europe. L21 ~ 4000 years ago in Gaul (France?0 and M269 ~ 6000 years ago
> > around Causasus. M222 around 1500-2000 years ago NW Ireland. That the M222
> > did not start with Niall is evident, as his brothers present day clans carry
> > M222. Thus Muighmheadoin could have been the earliest progenitor, but could
> > be a few generations back in NW Ireland. That Niall spread the marker
> > logarithmicly as did Ghenghis Khan (who like Niall was not the progenitor of
> > his marker) was brought about by prestige& position as the Trinity report
> > cites. As we know Columba was celibate but his kindred started the abbeys in
> > Atholl and I am probably off of Crinan ancestry (Montcreiffe& Skeene -
> > Crinan ancestor of Conall Gulban). I see no East to West from Scotland
> > movement in Clan Donnachaidh or no steady state Ireland& Scotland modal as
> > viewed by Campbell& some archaeologists. I think O'Rially's theory is quite
> > plausible with the Q Celts. We know that Adomnan mentioned no Gaels in St
> > Columbas' wanderings in Pictland but needed interpreters. So in my case, I
> > got a good feeling about coming through Niall as do other Robertsons,
> > Duncans& Reids who carry the M222 marker.
> >
> >
> >
> > Direct Paternal Ancestry of Robert Reid Y-Chromosome R-M222 SNP
> >
> > Eochaidh Muighmheadoin Son of Muiredach Tireach, King of Meath
> >
> >
> > Niall Noigiallachd. C455 AD Niall of the Nine Hostages
> >
> > Conall Gulban progenitor of the Cen?l Conaill, King of Tir Conaill d. 464 AD
> >
> >
> > Fergus Cendfota son of Conall Gulban
> >
> >
> > ?Kindred? of Colum Cille (Columba)
> > Sons of Fergus Cendfota: S?tnae, Feidlimid, Br?nainn, Ninnad. All four sons
> > produced Abbots of Iona. St Columba celibate, son of Feidlimid Abbots of
> > Iona 563 ? 700 AD
> >
> >
> > Lugaid (Cenel Lugdech)? son of S?tnae, conjectured by Sir Iain Moncreiffe as
> > ancestor
> > of Clan Donnachaidh
> >
> > Abbots of Dull& Dunkeld, Atholl, Perthshire, Scotland 700-1000 AD ? direct
> > paternal lineal descent fron Conall Gulban
> >
> >
> > Duncan, Abthane of Dule, abbot of Dunkeld and Governor of Strathclyde b c920
> > AD
> >
> >
> > Duncan, mormaer of Atholl and Abthane of Dule, killed 1010 AD at Battle of
> > Mortlach
> > where Malcolm II King of Scots
> > defeated invading Norsemaen
> >
> > Crinan, Abbot of Dunkeld& Earl of Atholl d. 1045. Progenitor of Clan
> > Donnachaid
> >
> >
> > Duncan I MacCrinan, King of Scotland d. 1040 AD killed at
> > Burghead.
> >
> > Mael Muire (Melmare) Mormaer of Atholl appointed c1100 AD
> >
> > Madach (Madadd) 1st Earl of Atholl d. 1145 AD
> > Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl m. c1165 AD to Hextilda
> >
> > Duncan 3rd son of Malcolm 2nd Earl of Atholl
> >
> > Madach of Clunes (probable male line to Earls of Atholl)
> > researcher Godon MacGregor)
> >
> > Andrew de Atholia
> >
> > Duncan de Atholia d. 1355 AD
> >
> > Patrick de Atholia, First of Lude
> >
> > Alexander Reid of Strathloch, descendants called Baron Rua
> > ?Reid?
> >
> > Baron Reids - descendants in Strathloch, Perthshire,
> > Scotland c1500 - 1750
> >
> > Industrial Revolution movement from Perth to Renfrewshire
> >
> > Mathew Reid ? resided in Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
> > 1839
> >
> >
> > Thomas Reid ? b. 1839 Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scotland
> >
> >
> > William Thomson Reid - b. 1869 Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, Scotland
> >
> > Thomas Reid - b. 1896 Longriggrend, Lanarkshire, Scotland
> >
> > Daniel Michael Reid - b. 1922 Youngstown, Ohio
> >
> > Robert Reid - b. 1949 Youngstown, Ohio
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> >
> > Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2011 1:56 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255
> >
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: j ()
> > 2. Re: just to throw in another legend ()
> > 3. Re: Speculations on Celtric Tribes (Bernard Morgan)
> > 4. Re: j ()
> > 5. Re: just to throw in another legend ()
> > 6. Re: Venicones ()
> > 7. M222 in Donegal ()
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:08:40 -0400 (EDT)
> > From:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] j
> > To:
> > Message-ID:<>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> > In a message dated 8/19/2011 4:46:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > All you say is true, but, does any it have anything to do with the origins
> > of M222. What we do or do not know regarding Ireland and the Irish of
> > many cultures before there were nations all previous to the 5th century
> > really has nothing to do with the origin of M222 except in answering an
> > emotional question -- which is why is it so important for it to have
> > developed in Ireland?
> >
> > Most DNA experts I'm familiar with believe M222 originated in Ireland.
> > And the reason they think so (in the words of Ken Nordvedt) is "that's
> > where the haplotypes are." Wilson (of EthnoAncestry) said much the
> > samething in a recent book and interview, a small part of which follows:
> >
> > Wilson: This I think is a mark of a movement from Ireland to Scotland at
> > some point in the past, rather long ago, because these are not men with
> > Irish surnames. They have ordinary Scottish surnames that have been in
> > Scotland for hundreds of years.
> >
> > Moffat: In other words were the Gaels either immigrants or were they a
> > native people who spoke Gaelic anyway?
> >
> > Wilson: Well I think that the Gaels of Dal Riata originated in Ireland.
> > And this is because
> > we've discovered and characterized a marker, a DNA marker, so a piece of
> > DNA that varies between individuals which we call M222. This is an
> > incredible marker actually because about 20% of all Irish men carry this
> > Y-chromsome marker. And when we look up into the north to Ulster it's
> > over 40% -
> > so it's extremely common and it shows all these people descend from one
> > man at some point in the past. In this case we think know who the
> > progenitor is.
> >
> > Moffat: Because Nial of the Nine hostages is a figure of some historical
> > substance around 400,500 AD. that means people with his marker in Scotland
> > have moved from Ireland and that's there's been a substantial migration.
> >
> > Wilson: I think that is the case.
> >
> > Wilson: I must say it's not entirely proven yet because we would need to see
> > higher diversity in these lineages, more different subtypes in Ireland than
> > we do in Scotland and that's not clear yet but I'm convinced with more data
> > we willl see that and the case will be closed.
> >
> >
> > That theory is not universally held however. Dr. Faux, also of EthnoAncetry
> > at the time in 2006, said the following about M222 (then called R1b1c7):
> >
> > " 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is
> > confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it
> > may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perhps
> > because the first M222 emerged there).
> >
> > The only other relevant theory out there among academics belongs not to DNA
> > but to an Irish mythologist, O'
> > Rahillyh (Early Irish History and Mythology). O'Rahilly believed the Dal
> > Cuinn), ancestors of the Ui Neill and Connachta, were latecomers to Ireland
> > arriving sometime between 300 and 30 BC. He also believed they came not
> > from England or Scotland but from somewhere in Gaul.
> >
> > We\ve discussed this on the list numerous times before. O'Rahilly began
> > his book with a chapter on Ptolemy's map of Ireland. Well over half the
> > tribal names in Ptolemy's map are unidentifiable to modern scholars. There
> > is some agreement of a few of the names, including that of the Ulaidh and
> > Dal Riata in northern Ireland, the Brigantes in Leinster, the Iverni in
> > Munster and a few others. O'"Rahilly found no references to a tribe with
> > the name of Dal Cuinn or anything similar. In fact he said they should
> > have been there by 150 AD. but were not.
> >
> > O'Rahilly discussed every tribal name that appears in Ptolemy's map except
> > for one: the Venicnii..
> >
> > Why he omitted this name is a mystery. It appears in every version of the
> > map I've seen. In a minor footnote he even mentioned the Venicones of
> > Scotland.
> >
> > O'Rahilly's theories are all wrapped up in linguistic divisions between P
> > and Q Celtic. I have ignored these since few linguists agree with him.
> > When you boil it down to the basics you come away with this: the Dal Cuinn
> >
> > as a tribe came to Ireland from somewhere in Gaul sometime during the Roman
> > era in the British Isles.
> >
> > If you accept the connection between the Dal Cuinn and M222, and the
> > possibility that the Dal Cuinn came from Gaul, then it is logical to assume
> > M222 originated in Gaul and migrated west into the British Isles. Scotland
> > would be the most likely first settlement; but they had boats and could
> > have come to Ireland at about the same time.
> >
> > If anyone knows of any other theories on the origin of the Dal Cuinn now is
> > the time to speak out.
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 22:14:34 -0400 (EDT)
> > From:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend
> > To:
> > Message-ID:<>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/19/2011 5:43:01 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > Is there any belief that M-222 may have come to Ireland with the Laigin?
> >
> > There is a DNA signature associated with the Lagin of Leinster but its not
> > M222.
> >
> > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm_
> > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/leinster.htm)
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 03:17:45 +0000
> > From: Bernard Morgan<>
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Speculations on Celtric Tribes
> > To:<>, dna-r1b1c7<>
> > Message-ID:<>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
> >
> >
> > Let follow some of Craig's words
> >> Isolated individuals did not prosper or indeed long survive in the late
> > Neolithic and the early Middle Ages.
> >
> > In Ireland the basic unit of society was the derbfhine (or variant),
> > comprising all the patrilineal descendants over a four-generation group,
> > i.e., back to common great-grandfather. The derbfhine held typical five or
> > four rath/tech i.e. homesteads, which formed a Baile. Twenty Baile form a
> > Tuath or Tricha Cet, the basic kingdom level.
> >
> > Population remains constant until such things as agricultural improvements;
> > therefore population growth is a constant sum game, i.e. if the M222+
> > population expansion is at the expense of someone else?s male descendants.
> > M222 population could expand territorially, however you have to wars and
> > tribal politics, so a simpler method is to push the weaker members of the
> > tribe to the edges. Smith shows this his book "Celtic Leinster". So non-M222
> > population is forced to marginal land or contested frontier, and so are in
> > decline. (Probably also there male access to reproduction was a constant sum
> > game to, won by those with great recourses.)
> >
> > How this applies to M222? Well M222 would have grown in a clump for mutual
> > support and when large enough a clump breaks away and form new colonies.
> > This organic grow is what is described in the branching pedigrees and the
> > geographical movements can be followed in the annals. Hence have the
> > information to know who should be M222 (if telling the truth) due to tribal
> > claims. In Scotland this lack the annals its harder, yet there are Gaelic
> > tribal descriptions. However the Clan confederation dominates our
> > understanding of Scotland. Without the history and genealogical records we
> > know little about origin of the Gall-Gael. I think the fundamental issue
> > with Scotland is that no one have yet written the Gaelic history of
> > Scotland, or as the Scots would have described it, the Irish history of
> > Scotland?.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:21:50 -0400 (EDT)
> > From:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] j
> > To:
> > Message-ID:<>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/19/2011 7:54:56 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > I understand there are some histories of Wales, written in the early
> > 1900,that indicated some Irish raiders from the east central coast of
> > Ireland came into Wales and some of them settled in Wales.
> > Some of these Irish raiders were likely Celtic M-222+. Their descendants
> > mixed in with the Welsh Celts, and spread all the way into northern
> > England, southern Scotland, and northeastern Scotland.
> >
> > There's a fair amount about that in the literature. Google flight of the
> > Deisi to find some of it. There aren't many specific Irish tribes named
> > though. I think the Ui Liathain are another. There are also notices of a
> > northern British tribe returning to northern Wales to throw out the Irish
> > kings. And in Irish sources a statement that the Irish kings spent as much
> >
> > time in Wales as in Ireland. Nothing specific though. Nothing to tie in
> > with M222 although you can't rule it out.
> >
> >
> > The following is from Wikipedia:
> >
> > "
> > The U? Liath?in are known from both Irish and _British_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain) sources, respectively the
> > _Sanas Cormaic_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic) _[4]_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-3) _[5]_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-4) and _Historia
> > Brittonum_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Brittonum) ,_[6]_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-5)
> > to have had colonies in _Wales_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wales) and
> > _Cornwall_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornwall) . According to the
> > Historia Brittonum they were driven out of _North Wales_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Wales) by _Cunedda_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cunedda) and his sons._[7]_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-6)
> > Alongside the U? Liath?in in this region of Britain were a significant force
> > of the so-called _D?isi_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D?isi) , whose story
> > is told in the famous _Expulsion of the D?isi_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_D?isi) already mentioned
> > above,_[8]_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-7) as well as a
> > smaller population of
> > the _Laigin_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin) . Neither are
> > specifically connected to the U? Liath?in, or connected to each other, in
> > any of the Irish sources, but collaboration can certainly not be ruled out,
> > especially in matters relating to trade, including the slave trade. The
> > D?isi Muman lived adjacent to them in the neighboring _County Waterford_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Waterford) and the Laigin could be
> > found not much farther east in the Kingdom of _Leinster_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster) .
> > The U? Liath?in can, however, be associated easily with their apparent
> > relation _Crimthann mac Fidaig_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimthann_mac_Fidaig) , the legendary _King of
> > Munster_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_of_Munster) and dominant _High King of
> > Ireland_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland) of the 4th century.
> > They are mentioned not only in the same passage in the Sanas Cormaic,_[9]_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-8) _[10]_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-9) but are close
> > relations in all the earliest genealogical
> > manuscripts.
> > In a 1926 paper, _Eoin MacNeill_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eoin_MacNeill) discusses the movements of
> > the U? Liath?in at considerable length, arguing their leadership in the
> > South Irish conquests and founding of the later dynasty of _Brycheiniog_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brycheiniog) , figures in the Welsh
> > genealogies matching U? Liath?in dynasts in the Irish genealogies. He
> > argues any possible settlement of the D?isi would have been subordinate
> > until the ousting of the U? Liath?in by the sons of Cunedda. The founder of
> > Brycheiniog, _Brychan_ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brychan) , is in all
> > probability the early dynast Macc Brocc (for whom see below), while the
> > name Braccan also occurs early in the pedigrees of the U? Fidgenti and U?
> > Dedaid, close kindred of the U? Liath?in. MacNeill further associates this
> > with the sovereignty in Ireland and conquests in Britain of their cousin
> > germane, the monarch Crimthann mac Fidaig._[11]_
> > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U?_Liath?in#cite_note-10)
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:28:41 -0400 (EDT)
> > From:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] just to throw in another legend
> > To:
> > Message-ID:<>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > I think at the very least that the current map on the project page should
> > state that it just represent the area of greatest currently known
> > concentration. I'd also like to see the Trinity maps displayed, and/or any
> > of the other maps produced on other blogs/fora giving a much more extensive
> > area of coverage. For instance there was a suggestion on the R-L21 Project
> > some months back that parts of Germany may be up to 5% M222+, if that's
> > true it changes everything!
> >
> > I put the Trinity M222 distribution map online.
> >
> > _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg_
> > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222cline.jpg)
> >
> >
> > There is no other such map available that I know of.
> >
> > As to German M222 there are quite a few in the databases. I just posted an
> > old list I compiled years ago the other day in response to someone who told
> > me he was Scandinavian M222.
> >
> > I haven't been able to update this list in the last few years. Ysearch
> > times out after about 500 entries now.
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:40:56 -0400 (EDT)
> > From:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones
> > To:
> > Message-ID:<>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
> >
> >
> >
> > In a message dated 8/19/2011 9:43:03 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > What family names in Westmeath (the center of the southern Ui Neill power)
> > were tested for M222 in the Trinity report?
> >
> > The names Trinity tested can be found in their article _A Y-Chromosome
> > Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland (Trinity)_
> > (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/gael.pdf) and in the various
> > spreadsheets they released to the public. They also did a limited further
> > sampling of possible M222 surnames but kept the surnames tested
> > confidential. I also heard from several Kavanghs who said they were tested
> > by Trinity but the surname does not appear in any database released.
> >
> > Their website and data files are still online even though the project is
> > over.
> >
> >
> > _http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php_
> > (http://www.gen.tcd.ie/molpopgen/resources.php)
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Sat, 20 Aug 2011 01:55:23 -0400 (EDT)
> > From:
> > Subject: [R-M222] M222 in Donegal
> > To: ,
> > Message-ID:<>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
> >
> > I received an email from a co-admin of the Ireland DNA project on the
> > subject of the Venicnii in Donegal.
> >
> > "
> > " I read a book last year called:
> > "Cen?l Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800" by Brian Lacey of the
> > Discovery project. It was published in 2006 before the publicity about M222
> > hit the wires. His theory was that the C?nel Conaill/C?nel Eoghain were
> > actually indigenous to Donegal and that they had written themselves into
> > history as Northern U? N?ill for political reasons. Obviously the presence
> > of
> > M222 seems to negate this theory. But perhaps there's some truth in
> > argument that some of the U? N?ill were already "Donegal natives" by time
> > that we reckon Niall lived. In other words carried M222 -- just as men
> > carrying U?
> > Fiachrach and U? Bri?in names have tested M222+
> >
> >
> > Either way it's quite an interesting book as it covers the entire of Donegal
> > during this period with mentions of the "Sean Tuatha" (the old tribes etc.).
> > For example he theorises that the Cen?l Lughaidh of West Donegal name
> > actually reflects a connection to the god Lugh (they control area around
> > Tory island on coast), but in christian times it was refactor to be descent
> > from man called Lughaidh who is put down as a cousin of Colmcille.
> >
> >
> > Fair bit in way of genealogies mention from annals etc.
> >
> >
> > _http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784_
> >
> > (http://www.amazon.com/Cenel-Conaill-Donegal-Kingdoms-500-800/dp/1851829784)
> >
> >
> >
> > I haven't read this book myself but I have access to it in a library
> > here. Here's a review someone posed on Amazon.com. I might take a look
> > at it
> > myself.
> >
> > "Brian Lacey offers an in-depth study of the Cenel Conaill and the Donegal
> > Kingdoms 500-800 AD. The text has many b&w ilustrations and maps. The study
> > is quite in-depth for the common layman but presented well. The author has
> > strong opinions about the origin& genealogy of the Cenel Conaill but does
> > not present a compelling argument in regards to his theory that Conall
> > Gulban was not a son of Niall Noigiallach. I would have thought the author
> > would have had more compelling evidence on Gulban than thus presented and
> > was not swayed by his opinion and concur with the established Gulban
> > genealogy back to Niall, although tenuous at best. In regards to Niall of
> > the Nine Hostages not being the progenitor of the R-M222 genetic marker, I
> > concur. Dr.
> > Ken Nordtveldt calculates the MCCA of R-M222 at 1740 years ago in 2008.
> > That computes to 268 AD, much earlier than Niall's supposed reign of 379 -
> > 405 AD (more recent up to 455 AD). Of course this does not take into
> > account a variance or standard deviation which was not computed. This
> > places the progenitor possibly being Niall's father to up to his
> > great-great grandfather (Caibre Maccormac d. 284). It is suggested that the
> > progenitor may be a Cruithin Prince. This is unlikely as Niall's two
> > brothers (Brion& Friachrae) through their respective descendents carry the
> > R-M222 marker. Thus one of Niall's paternal ancestors most likely had the
> > mutation. Anyway, Niall likely contributed most heavily to the marker since
> > he was still pagan and had multiple concubines. Overall, a very well
> > researched and scholarly presentation. However, the author's refudiation of
> > some of the sons of Niall as not belonging to his lineage is at best weak
> > and does not concur with the earlier records. In addition, recent R-M222
> > haplogroup DNA findings of surnames associated with Conall Gulban and the
> > Ui Neill associated clans refute such suppositions presented by the author.
> > "
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 255
> > ******************************************
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> > End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256
> > ******************************************
> >
>

This thread:

• Re: [R-M222] NEW THREAD DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 256 by Bernard Morgan <>