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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-09 > 1315850576


From: Paul Conroy <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610
Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 14:02:56 -0400
References: <30fc.6132f10b.3b9ee00a@aol.com><SNT128-W244017611EFA0AE4C822F7BB020@phx.gbl><SNT128-W3376B52E90B6A8B37DD4EABB020@phx.gbl><CA+2t2c4hanFhmGH+pxgOiU=hKO+bX1xeJ23d4bDmd-GCicA3=Q@mail.gmail.com><SNT128-W3510CBF94B3B31DBB35E4CBB020@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <SNT128-W3510CBF94B3B31DBB35E4CBB020@phx.gbl>


The alternative Tara (aka Teamhair) is Turoe (aka Teamhair) in East county
Galway.

The basic idea was that a large Fir Bolg (aka Belgae, La Tene Celts)
invasion occurred in the area.

More here:
http://homepage.tinet.ie/~Williamfinnerty/sd1.htm

Note: the Turoe Stone is distinctively La Tene (Celtic Iron Age) in style,
and one of only 3 in Ireland, the next nearest is in Roscommon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turoe_stone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castlestrange_stone

On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Bernard Morgan
<>wrote:

>
> The mention of Ossary "who first planted house-posts in Tara" is
> interesting in regard to Dal Fiachach. For Dal Fiachach takes the Ossary
> lands in "The Explusion of the Deisi". Paul, where is the alternative Tara
> location by the Shannon?
>
> >From Éigse: a journal of Irish studies, Volume 21, 1984; "The Deisi and
> Dyfed":
> "... It follows from all of this we must be careful in drawing inferences
> from any statement made about the Deisi in the texts: are they referring to
> the people and territories of what we know today as Waterford and south
> Tipperary? Or to the genealogical entity known as Dal Fiachach Suidge? Or,
> more generally, to vassal or rent-paying tribes? As far as ED is concerned,
> this matter of the ambiguity of Deisi can be dealt with by giving a broad
> outline of the story and then going on to establish at what points in the
> narrative the different meanings of Deisi come into play.
> ED tells of the explusion of the Deisi from Meath, their sojourn in
> Leinster, and their settlement in Wales and Munster. The story opens with
> the statement that Art Corb (of Dal Fiachach Suidge) had four sons, Brecc,
> Oengus, Echaid and Forad. The son of Cormac mac Airt. King of Tara, ravish
> Forad’s daughter, and Oengus went to the king’s court in search of the girl.
> There Oengus attacked and killed the king’s son, and he also inadvertently
> blinded the king in one eye. Oengus escaped, taking Forad's daughter with
> him. Since the loss of his eye was a blemish (ainem), Cormac was thereby
> disqualified from holding the kingship, and he was obliged to leave Tara.
> The Deisi were driven into Leinster; the account of their sojourn there is
> confused and chronologically inconsistent, and we shall have to return to
> it. For the present it will be enough to say that the Deisi were welcomed in
> Leinster by Fiachu ba Aiccid, who settled them in territories he had seized
> from the Ui Bairrche. There the Deisi remained until the time of Crimthann
> son of Enna Ceinselach, when the Ui Baircche forcibly reposed their
> territories, and the Deisi were taken to Ard Ladrann by Crimthann. In the
> meantime, Echaid son of Art Corb had gone to Dyfed with his family and
> settled there. Those of the Deisi who had gone to Ard Ladrann did not remain
> there for long, for after Crimthann's death they were driven out once more,
> first into Osraige, and then to the south-west. Finally, they entered into
> an alliance with Oengus son of Nad-Fraich, king of Cashel : Ethne Uathach of
> the Deisi was betrothed to Oengus, and the Deisi in return were permitted to
> drive the Osraige out of their territories in what is now south County
> Tipperary, and settle there themselves. Eithne Uathach gathered together all
> the exiled groups in Ireland to help the Deisi, who eventually routed the
> Osraige and settle in their territory.
> In attempting to disentangle the different senses in which Deisi is used in
> this story, I think we can say that it was Dal Fiachach Suidge who were
> expelled from Meath and spent a period in Leinster, that it was one of their
> branches which crossed the sea to Dyfed, and that it was other of their
> branches which were to settle territories wrested from the Osraige in what
> is now south County Tipperary. It is in the course of the attempt by Dal
> Fiachach to drive the Osraige out of those territories that we come across
> Deisi in the sense of 'vassal-tribes'. The Osraige defeat the invaders in
> seven battles (R 16; L 100 f. Others give the number of battles as thirty, L
> 101). Because Dal Fiachach have been depleted in many battles, Ethne gathers
> to them every migratory band of which she knows in Ireland (R §22; L 104 f.)
> The point in the sequence of events at which we are told of Ethne's action
> differs in L and R ; in L, it is after the Osraige have won seven (or
> thirty) victories in battle but before they have been routed ; in R, Ethne's
> action is revealed after the account of the rout. In any case, the claim of
> ED here is that Dal Fiachach acquired these tribes as allies at some stage
> of their settlement of their Munster territories, and that Dal Fiachach and
> the allied tribes henceforth constituted the Deisi. The texts go on to make
> a distinction between Dal Fiachach and the Deisi properly (that is,
> etymologically) so called : 'There are fifty migratory bands among the Deisi
> . . . and it is these migratory bands which are called Deisi, for they are
> under the rent and legal obligation and croft-rent (bothachas) of vassals to
> lords, that is, to Dal Fiachach Suidge, and the latter are not called Deisi
> (R 22; cf. L 215 ff.). The account in ED of their settlement in East Munster
> purports to tell us how the Deisi were constituted ; what the origin was of
> the relationship between Dal Fiachach and the other constituent groups, on
> the one hand, and of that between Dal Fiachach and the Eoganacht dynasty of
> Cashel, on the other; and how the Deisi established themselves in their
> Tipperary territories. There are many other points of interest (and not a
> few difficulties) in the treatment of these matters in our texts, but a
> discussion of them must await another occasion."
>
>
>
> > From:
> > Date: Mon, 12 Sep 2011 11:17:57 -0400
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Laud 610
> >
> > That's interesting:
> > >
> > > 36. Three sons of Búan mac Lóegaire Birn, from whom are [descended] the
> > > Osraige; i.e. Ailill, Óengus [and] Fíacc, who first planted house-posts
> > > in Tara.
> >
> >
> > Again, Osraige (aka Ossary) is Western Laois and Northern Kilkenny and
> parts
> > of North East Tipperary - the area my family has lived in since
> > time immemorial. It borders on the territory known as "Ely O'Carroll",
> which
> > I presume is the same as "Éle" mentioned above.
> >
> > Ossary contains a lot of M222+, such as Dunn(e) and Daltons.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Paul
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Bernard Morgan
> > <>wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >From the Book of Ballymote:
> > > "Cuic mc. la Feidlimid .r. {68b} .i. Conn .c.c. o raiter Leith Cuind, &
> > > Cael a quo Caelraighe & Crinda & Croisine & Eochu find fuath nairt, no
> fuath
> > > nandhea & is uadh Fotharta & Fiacha suighe a quo na Desi & Fiacha
> raidhe a
> > > quo Corca Raidhe."
> > >
> > > Dal Fiachach Suighe descend from a brother of Conn of a hundred
> battles.
> > > They settle in Tipperary (i.e. of the Dessi), yet others the Corca
> Raidhe
> > > the progeny of Fiacha Raidhe mac Fiacha Suighdhe have the barony of
> > > Corkaree, Co. Westmeath named for them. This is within the realm of
> Cenel
> > > Fiachach mac Neill.
> > >
> > > (The tale of "The Explusion of the Dessi", tells of Dal Fiachach Suighe
> > > loss of power.)
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> > >
> > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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