DNA-R1B1C7-L ArchivesArchiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-08 > 1314810048
From: Susan Hedeen <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 287
Date: Wed, 31 Aug 2011 13:01:20 -0400
> Today's Topics:
> 1. off model request summary (Susan Hedeen)
> 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286 (Robert Reid)
When discussing off models there was mention that several in this group
share a mutation value of 15 @ dys 392. I was wondering if those of you
who show cys 392 = 15 if you'd share your signature with me. Another
question, of those of you who have 15 @ dys 392, how many share the 28
value at 389-2? Most I've seen in Y search where 392 = 15 have 389-2 = 29.
If you'd like to contact me directly rather that take up list talk, that
is fine or
> Date: Sun, 28 Aug 2011 18:24:12 -0400
> From: "Robert Reid"<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
> St Columba& translators
> > From Adomnan of Iona, Life of St Columba:
> Book I, 33, pp. 136-7: When St Columba was staying for a few days on the
> island of Skye ? a little boat came in to land on the shore, bringing in its
> prow a man worn out with age. He was the chief commander of the warband in
> the region of C?. Two men carried him from the boat and set him down in
> front of the blessed man. As soon as he had received the word of God from
> St Columba, through an interpreter, he believed and was baptized by him.
> Drumville takes Geonus as an adjective derived from the place name C?, the
> name of a Pictish provence thought to extend over what is now Banffshire and
> Aberdeenshire (Watson, Celtic Place-names, pp.108-9, 114, 515; Wainright,
> ?The Picts and the problem?, pp. 46-7). The stream in which he received
> baptism is even today called by the local people ?water of Artbranan?.
> Book II, 32, pp. 179-80: During the time when St Columba spent a number of
> days in the province of the Picts, he was preaching the word of life through
> an interpreter. A Pictish layman heard him and his entire household believed
> and was baptized, husband, wife, children and servants. A few days later one
> of his sons was seized with a severe pain, which brought him to the boundary
> of life and death. When the heathen wizards saw that the boy was dying, they
> began to make a mock of the parents and to reproach them harshly, making
> such of their own gods as the stronger and belittling the God of the
> Christians as the feebler.
> All this was made known to St Columba and it stirred him vigorously to take
> God?s part. He set off with his companions to visit the layman?s house, and
> there he found that the child had recently died and his parents were
> performing the rituals of mourning. Seeing their great distress, St Columba
> comforted them and assured them that they should not in any way doubt that
> God is almighty. Then he proceeded to question them, saying:
> ?In which of these buildings does the body of the dead boy lie??
> The bereaved father led St Columba to that sad lodging, which the saint
> entered alone, leaving the crowd of people outside. Having gone inside, St
> Columba immediately knelt and, with tears streaming down his face, prayed to
> Christ the Lord. After these prayers on bended knee, he stood up and turned
> his gaze to the dead boy, saying:
> ?In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, wake up again and stand upon thy
> At the saint?s glorious word the sould returned to the body, and the boy
> that was dead opened his eyes and lived again.
> Dr. Isabel Henderson, The Picts, pp. 74-75, suggests ? that the saint?s
> travels among the Picts, .. centered around St Columba?s visit to King
> Bridei near the River Ness, may have been drawn from a narrative of that
> visit. It certainly seems possible, even likely, that II 27, 32-35 derive
> from some such account..?
> St Columba does not require a translator?s help howeve, during the
> course of his visit(s) to King Bridei?s fort and his dialogue with various
> people there, so plainly there were at least 2 languages used in Pictland
> (wizard Broichan, King Bridei and his council). As a contemporary, and one
> of the chief kings in Scotland, Bridei appears in Adomn?n's Life of Saint
> Columba. Adomn?n's account of Bridei is problematic in that it fails to
> tells us whether Bridei was already a Christian, and if not, whether Columba
> converted him.
> The chief place of Bridei's kingdom, which may have corresponded with later
> Fortriu, is not known. Adomn?n tells that after leaving the royal court, by
> implication soon afterwards, Columba came to the River Ness, and that the
> court was atop a steep rock. Accordingly, it is generally supposed that
> Bridei's chief residence was at Craig Phadrig, to the west of modern
> Inverness overlooking the Beauly Firth. Both the Vita Columbae and the
> Venerable Bede (672/673-735) record Columba's visit to Bridei. Whereas
> Adomn?n just tells us that Columba visited Bridei, Bede relates a later,
> perhaps Pictish tradition, whereby the saint actually converts the Pictish
> king. Another early source is a poem in praise of Columba, most probably
> commissioned by Columba's kinsman, the King of the U? N?ill clan. It was
> almost certainly written within three or four years of Columba's death and
> is the earliest vernacular poem in European history. It consists of 25
> stanzas of four verses of seven syllables each.
> That St Columba does not require a translator?s help during the course of
> his visit(s) to King Bridei?s fort (Craig Phadng) and his dialogue with
> various people there, plainly infers that the elite of Bridei?s kingdom
> spoke a form of Q-Celtic similar to Old Irish. Or maybe Q-Celtic was
> fashionable at the time much like French was at European Courts in the 18th
> century and the elite were bilingual. However, the translators needed at
> the baptism of Artbranan and the raising of the dead boy near Fidach
> (Inverness/Nainshire) could be a forms of an extinct P-Celtic (Pictish)
> language. Pictish is a term used for the extinct language or languages
> thought to have been spoken by the Picts, the people of northern and central
> Scotland in the Early Middle Ages. The idea that a distinct Pictish language
> was perceived at some point is attested clearly in Bede's early 8th-century
> Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum, which names Pictish as a language
> distinct from both Welsh and Gaelic. However, why would the elite of King
> Bridei?s kingdom speak a language (form of Q-Celtic) distinct from the
> probable P-Celtic scenarios mentioned above?
> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> Sent: Sunday, August 28, 2011 3:00 AM
> Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 286
> Today's Topics:
> 1. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 (Robert Reid)
> 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284 ()
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 27 Aug 2011 21:07:02 -0400
> From: "Robert Reid"<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="gb2312"
> Again, Clan MacTavish Seannachie website:
> Tavis, Tavis or Taus is considered, and accepted in multiple sources, as the
> progenitor, epytom and founder of Clan MacTavish. However, this is
> incorrect. The MacTavish consider themselves much older than the traditional
> stories of Argyllshire, promulgated by the old seannachies, and newer
> writers still insist upon the old stories, when none have looked beyond
> those traditional stories for any possible alternate origin. Such a
> beginning is found in the old Irish annals and the old writ, Ceart Ui Neill,
> out of Donegal, Ireland. The MacTavishes come from the Cenel nDuach a branch
> of the Cenel Conaill, descended from the Pictish Kings of Ros Guill and
> Irguill, now part of Donegal, and also from Dal-araidhe, now part of Antrim
> and Down. The Greek (Roman)historian, mapmaker and mathmetician, Ptolemy,
> mentions the tribe under the name of Ouenniknoi (Windukatii), and the
> lineage is tracable in such texts as the Irish Annuls of Ulster and Four
> A Traditional Royal Genealogic Table
> of the Cen?l nDuach (or Windukatii Picts)
> (Given in the various Irish annals and Ceart Ui Neill)
> 1. Conall Gulban ? King of Tir Connell, of whom the Cen?l Conaill
> (Supposed Son of King Niall No?giallach)
> 2. Du?, alias Fergus Cennfoda - married Erca Loarn, Dau. of Loarn Mor,
> she was Princess of Dalriada.
> He founded the branch Cen?l nDuach of Cenel Conaill,
> a Prince of the Cen?l Conaill,
> King of Goll and Irgoll,
> and Prince of Dal-araidhe.
> 3. Ninnid(h), King of Goll and IrGoll. His offspring are called ?Siol
> (flourished 561-563)
> 4. B?et?n (Baedan), King of Teimar [sic Tara], High King of Ireland
> (d. 584-586)|
> 5. Conall, Prince of the Cenel nDuach& Tory Island, of Siol Ninnidh
> 6. Sechnusach, Prince of the Cenel nDuach of Siol Ninnidh
> 7. Du? (2nd ?), Prince of the Cenel nDuach of Siol Ninnidh
> (has but brief mention)
> 8. Corcc, or Uricc (alias Orc Doith) of Cenel nDuach& of Siol Ninnidh
> King of Gull and Irogull, flourished 658
> ( Orc, the Boar, and
> Doith is a latter interpretation of Dui, or Duach.
> Orc Doith literally means: The Boar of Duach)
> 9. Duinechaid, Prince of the Cenel nDuach& Siol Ninnidh, killed 691
> 10. Nuada (alias Anmchadh), King of Guill and Irguill (d. 718-722)
> Last of the Royal Succession
> The descendants are: The MacGilletsamhais (Siol Ninnidh) over Gull and
> Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 284
> Today's Topics:
> 1. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - ohboy
> here we go again! (Sandy Paterson)
> 2. Re: The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland - ohboy
> here we go again! (Bill Howard)
> Yes, it has been discussed many times.
> One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether
> M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families
> are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland
> and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history,
> separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel,
> aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have
> Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier,
> and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as
> they were one breeding population for millennia.
> Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or
> Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some
> Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in is
> the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first person
> about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill families were
> extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants were Medieval
> rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and
>> early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided
>> distribution of
>> M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need
>> M222+to be
>> able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as:
>> 1. Conroy (myself)
>> 2. Galyean
>> 3. Gillespie
>> 4. McCord
>> 5. Cruden
>> Check out this chart:
>> And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland,
>> North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France,
>> South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland,
>> Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included
>> in this project.
>> As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman
>> French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one wave
>> from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source somewhere
>> between coastal
>> between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and
>> South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes, and
>> to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman
>> French, to Scotland, England and Ireland.
>> On Thu, Aug 25, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Susan Hedeen<
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:00:24 -0400
>> From: Bill Howard<>
>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] The origin of R-M222 and the peopling of Ireland
>> - ohboy here we go again!
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
>> Just a short note about the determination of the time of origin of groups of
>> haplotypes, be they a SNP group or a surname group.
>> ?The RCC correlation technique now has a time scale determined from
>> ?t appears to be linear over tens of thousands of years.
>> This means that the mutation rate has not changed
>> significantly over that time period.
>> ?Haplotype analysis of only one set of markers is meaningless; it
>> must be compared with others.
>> ?By the nature of this comparison, we can only determine the TMRCA of
>> the oldest pair.
>> But we want the time of origin of the progenitor, not of a
>> pair of people.
>> ?If you form a phylogenetic tree, it contains ALL the testees that
>> are in the group you select.
>> ?You can plot the run of descendant lines as a function of time. It
>> will be an exponential plot due to the growing number in the
>> population whose markers have separately mutated.
>> ?A plot of the Log of the number (Log N) against the date will be
>> very nearly a straight line.
>> ?You merely have to extrapolate that straight line to the point where
>> Log N=0. That's when the progenitor lived.
>> The main point here is that the straight line results by using every testee
>> on the plot, not just the ones who are more distant, AND this leads to only
>> a very short extrapolation on the plot, so it can be trusted. The R^2 value
>> of the plot is of the order of 0.98, yielding a very nice relation that you
>> can work with and trust.
>> The downside? Easy -- you need a very large number of testees in the group
>> to assure that you are not just determining the TMRCA of the group you
>> chose. How do you know when you have included enough testees? Well, as the
>> number of testees you analyze gets larger and larger, the inclusion of more
>> results tends to push the TMRCA further back in time, even with the
>> extrapolation. If you run the tree process on larger and larger numbers,
>> you will see the effect. But if you have two large groups, one of which
>> contains, say 340 testees and the other contains 680 testees, and IF the
>> derived date of the former is LONGER AGO than the one derived from the
>> latter, then you know you have had enough in the sample because the "law of
>> diminishing returns" has set in.
>> That happened when John McLaughlin and derived Figure 3 in our paper on
>> M222. We mentioned that effect there. It can be found at:
>> and it has been submitted to the journal Familia, connected to the
>> Ulster Historical Foundation where the readership in Ulster and Scotland who
>> carry M222 tends to peak up!
>> I truly think that this is now the best way to determine the TMRCA of groups
>> of haplotypes. The more the group shares the identified characteristic of a
>> group, the more meaningful the determination will be. You should not apply
>> the process to a random group of testees because the result will not be
>> By the way, prior to publishing my Paper 1 introducing the RCC approach,
>> Whit Athey and I had considerable discussions about how to determine the
>> TMRCA of a surname cluster whose membership was known to be incomplete. This
>> is EXACTLY the case here. In my Paper 1, it was determined that to determine
>> the time of origin, you had to find the TMRCA of KNOWN members of the
>> cluster by a factor of about 52.7/43.3 = 1.22 in order to estimate the TMRCA
>> of a cluster if all the members were present. When there are more testees
>> in the sample, that factor will be lower, as we see in the case of the M222
>> extrapolation (below).My Paper 1 is at:
>> Now, go to Figure 3 of the M222 paper. There you will see the last measured
>> point was at a date of about 1300 BC. The same sort of extrapolation applied
>> here would take you to the TMRCA of the M222 SNP, about 1680 years ago (SD~
>> 300 years). If I had done this process on a number of surname clusters using
>> a phylogenetic tree approach, it would have given about the same result but
>> would have been more trustworthy. But I had not known of the tree approach
>> at the time I wrote that paper introducing the RCC correlation technique.
>> This is just a more clever way to determine the SNP => using the number of
>> descendant lines on the phylogenetic tree. Every testee contributes to the
>> resulting straight line on the tree!
>> - Bye from Bill Howard
>>> boy here we go again!
>>> Yes, it has been discussed many times.
>>> One of the topics most near and dear to many on this forum is whether
>>> M222 is Irish or Scottish, and especially whether particular families
>>> are of Irish or Scottish descent. The truth is that Western Scotland
>>> and Northern Ireland were almost the same country throughout history,
>>> separated by a water super-highway, that far from inhibiting travel,
>>> aided it. Almost every time a Scottish family can be shown to have
>>> Irish roots, those Irish roots may have been Scottish still earlier,
>>> and vice-versa - so to me it's pointless to try and distinguish, as
>>> they were one breeding population for millennia.
>>> Also, as I don't seem to be related closely to Northern Ireland or
>>> Western Scotland - though I do seem to possibly have share some
>>> Off-Modals to the Nith Valley Cluster - what I'm more interested in
>>> is the deep structure of the M222 group. I think I was the first
>>> person about 3 or 4 years ago, to point out that the Ui Neill
>>> families were extraordinary fecund, especially as their descendants
>>> were Medieval rulers in Ireland and Scotland, and
>>> early colonists in the US, they have created a very lopsided
>>> distribution of
>>> M222+. But to determine the true source of the entire group, we need
>>> M222+to be
>>> able to account for the placing of all the outliers, such as:
>>> 1. Conroy (myself)
>>> 2. Galyean
>>> 3. Gillespie
>>> 4. McCord
>>> 5. Cruden
>>> Check out this chart:
>>> And all the unrepresented East Ireland, West Ireland, South Ireland,
>>> North East Scotland, Central England, South England, Northern France,
>>> South West France, North West France (Brittany), Belgium, Holland,
>>> Germany, Norway, Denmark, Sweden - which to date are barely included
> this project.
>>> As I fairly closely some Daltons and some Stewards - both Norman
>>> French families - it's my opinion that M222 came in more than one
>>> wave from the Continent to the Isles, and probably has a source
>>> somewhere between
>>> between Brittany and Holland. Coming over first to South England and
>>> South East Ireland and possibly West Ireland as the Belgae tribes,
>>> and to South Ireland as the Erainn tribes, then later again as Norman
>>> French, to Scotland, England and Ireland.
|Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 287 by Susan Hedeen <>|