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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-08 > 1314292717

Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 279
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:18:37 -0700
References: <mailman.354.1314230113.29172.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.354.1314230113.29172.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>

Please Unsubscribe me from this list. I find it is not useful for me.

Thank you,

On Aug 24, 2011, at 4:55 PM, wrote:

> Today's Topics:
> 1. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Bernard Morgan)
> 2. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 276 (Susan Hedeen)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:32:18 +0000
> From: Bernard Morgan <>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
> To: dna-r1b1c7 <>
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>> Is there any connection between:
>>> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn
>>> Which list the same person as:
>>> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi*
>>> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi*
>>> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the
>>> Mountains", as opposed to
>>> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort"
> Do I take it that Mac Duinnshl?ibhe does not yield O'Duinn? I found a Dunlavey at YSearch.org and he is I*. I wonder how he compares to the halpotype of the MacGuinness of Iveagh.
> ------------------------------
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 09:51:32 -0400
> From: Susan Hedeen <>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 276
> To:
> Cc:
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> Since the two lands are completely linked through migrations, here is a
> summarized brief look at Scotland. The site for further exploration is
> at http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2html
> Certainly some from this site has already been here, however for those
> who haven't been consider it simply an addition to the discussion
> regarding heritages.
> *A Brief History of Scotland *
> Presented by Peter N. Williams, Ph.D.
> <http://www.britannia.com/wales/peter.html>;
> *Chapter 1: Celtic Scotland*
> There is evidence of human settlement in parts of present day Scotland
> <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>; that dates back to
> 6,000 BC. The inhabitants were hunters and fishermen. About two thousand
> years later, a second group arrived -- the Neolithic people. Some of
> their stone houses remain in Orkney; the well-preserved stone-built
> village, Skara Brae <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>;,
> attests to the wealth and stability of its builders. On the mainland,
> chambered tombs also show the sophisticated engineering of a settled,
> cooperative community. Then came the Beaker folk, named after the shape
> of their pottery. It is to these people that we owe the mysterious
> groups of huge stone circles and standing stones dotted hither and yon
> across the landscape.
> The Bronze Age, or rather, the early and late Bronze Ages, from about
> 2,000 to 600 BC, introduced swords, knives, chisels, buckles, cauldrons
> and buckets, all evidence of a high level of civilization and creature
> comfort that was enhanced by the metal craft learned in the so-called
> subsequent Iron Age. Such objects were used by the indigenous Picts, who
> lived in the region north of the Firth of Forth, and the Celts, who had
> come to live in regions of Britain and Ireland further south.
> It is to the invading Romans
> <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>; that we owe our
> written history of Britain; before their arrival, it simply wasn't the
> Celtic custom to entrust their history to anyone but the holy men and it
> was not to be written. The Romans, however, were always anxious to set
> down their military triumphs in writing, and from their historians a
> picture of Britain and its inhabitants began to emerge. In the fourth
> century, a Latin poem describes the people of Tartessos on the Atlantic
> coast of Iberia trading with the inhabitants of two large islands, Ierne
> and Albion (Ireland and Scotland), people who spoke a Celtic language.
> Ptolemy's geography (written about 150 AD includes a group of five
> islands lying between Scotland and Ireland. On them was built, a new
> structural form, the broch (a fortified dwelling), an immense round
> stone tower. The best preserved is found on Mousa in Shetland. Because
> they are perched on hills and headlands, the brochs seem to have been
> built by resident lords to protect their settlements from sea-borne
> raiders.
> In 55 and 54 BC following his success in subduing most of Gaul, Caesar
> turned his attention to the islands of Britain. However, for a few years
> afterwards, the Roman armies were fully occupied in suppressing the
> revolt of the Gauls on the continent under Vercingetorix, and so Britain
> was more-or-less left on its own, apart from its trading links with the
> Continent.
> Under the Emperor Claudius, Rome again began to look westwards to the
> misty lands over the sea, to a land full of legendary mineral wealth as
> well as good grain-growing pastures. Overcoming what amounted to only
> token resistance in the southeast, the Romans set up the frontier, the
> Fosse Way, running from Lincoln in the north to Essex in the southwest.
> Their prosperous villas attest to settled, peaceful conditions in the
> agricultural lands to the southeast. It was in the more mountainous
> areas west of the line, however, that the much sought-after minerals
> lay. And it was there that resistance was fiercest.
> The accounts given by Tacitus (written approximately half a century
> after those of Ptolemy) are particularly important, for his
> father-in-law was Agricola, appointed Governor of the Roman province of
> Britain. Agricola invaded what is now southern Scotland in 81 A.D.
> Before that, Roman garrisons had been established at Caerwent (near
> present-day Chepstow) in the south and Deva (Chester) in the north to
> keep a close eye on the Celtic tribesmen to the west, where the Romans
> found it necessary to destroy the Druid center of Wales on the Menai
> Straits.
> Farther north, under Agricola, the Roman armies vanquished one tribe
> after another until a final, decisive battle against Calgacus "the
> swordsman" at Mons Graupius in 84 A.D. This ended effective resistance
> (the Western Isles and the Highlands were left alone and up until the
> Clearances of the 18th century remained very much Celtic countries in
> language and culture). Though Agricola may have wished to add Ireland to
> his conquests, no Roman expedition was ever taken across the Celtic Sea
> to that large, relatively unknown western island.
> The Romans gave the country north of present-day Stirlingshire the name
> *Caledonia*. Much of the terrain is rugged and mountainous. In fact,
> three fifths of Scotland are mountain, hill and wind-swept moorland,
> unsuitable for agriculture and therefore not interesting to the Romans.
> In the Welsh language
> <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>;, widely spoken
> throughout the area when the Romans arrived, it was known as *Coed
> Celyddon* (the Caledonian Forest), inhabited by spectres and madmen,
> including *Myrddyn Wyllt* (Mad Merlin). Tacitus refers to the
> inhabitants of the region as britanni.
> It was not only the nature of the terrain that caused the Romans to
> abandon their attempts at conquest but the unimagined terrors of this
> Celtic world. After the Roman armies had been recalled to Rome,
> following Mons Graupius, their strategy towards Scotland was mainly a
> defensive one. In 121 AD, upon a visit to Britain, the Emperor Hadrian
> had this still-impressive wall built from Solway in the West Coast to
> Tyne in the east.
> Twenty years later, the turf-built Antonine Wall, stretching from the
> Clyde to the Forth, followed its more famous stone predecessor. The
> Caledonians quickly learned to master the art of guerrilla warfare
> against a scattered, and no-doubt homesick Roman legion in the North,
> including those led by their aging and frustrated commander Severus. It
> wasn't long before the Antonine Wall was abandoned, and the troops of
> Rome withdrew south to the well known and much longer, stronger
> defensive barrier built by Hadrian. Trouble at home meant that by the
> end of the fourth century, the remaining Roman outposts in Scotland were
> abandoned. Any civilized benefits of Roman rule enjoyed by southern
> Britain were thus denied to their northern neighbors who were having
> troubles of their own.
> At the time of the withdrawal, Scotland (Alba or Alban) was divided
> between four different races. The Picts of Celtic, perhaps of Scythian
> stock, predominated lived from Caithness in the north to the Forth in
> the south. The Britons of Strathclyde stretched from the Clyde to the
> Solway and further south into Cumbria. The late arriving Teutonic
> Anglo-Saxons, held the lands to the east south of the Forth into
> Northumbria and the kingdom of Dalriada, to the west, including
> present-day Argyll <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2.html#>;,
> (the land of the Gael). The Scots, from Northern Ireland occupied
> Kintyre and the neighboring islands in the third and fourth centuries.
> In perhaps typical Celtic fashion, the Picts and Scots spent more time
> fighting against each other than against their common enemies.
> *_Chapter 1: Celtic Scotland Continued_*
> <http://britannia.com/celtic/scotland/scot2a.html>;
> On 8/24/2011 3:00 AM, wrote:
>> Today's Topics:
>> 1. Re: Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800 - D?l
>> Fiatach (Paul Conroy)
>> 2. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe ()
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:58:38 -0400
>> From: Paul Conroy<>
>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD
>> 500-800 - D?l Fiatach
>> To:
>> Message-ID:
>> <CA+2t2c6PNFie4UjCfcz4sDWis=>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> Here's a link on the Erainn peoples in Ireland, which could also tie
>> together a few things:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn
>> In early Irish genealogical tracts the ?rainn are regarded as an ethnic
>>> group, distinct from the Laigin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laigin>; and
>>> Cruthin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruthin>;. Population groups in
>>> Munster classed as ?rainn include the Corcu Lo?gde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde>; in
>>> southwest County Cork<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Cork>;, the
>>> M?scraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige>; in Counties Cork
>>> andTipperary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Tipperary>;, the Corcu
>>> Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne>; in County Kerry<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Kerry>;,
>>> and the Corcu Baiscinn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscinn>; in
>>> west County Clare<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Clare>;. The D?l
>>> Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata>; and D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach>;
>>> (or Ulaid<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaid>;) in Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster>; are
>>> also considered ?rainn. The ?rainn appear to have been a powerful group in
>>> the proto-historic period, but in early historical times were largely
>>> reduced to politically marginal status, with the notable exception of the
>>> enigmatic Osraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osraige>;. The most
>>> important of the Munster ?rainn, the Corcu Lo?gde, retained some measure of
>>> prestige even after they had become marginalized by the E?ganachta<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta>; in
>>> the 7th or 8th century.[7]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-6>; It
>>> is likely that the sometimes powerful U? Liath?in<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Liath%C3%A1in>; and
>>> their close kin the U? Fidgenti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U%C3%AD_Fidgenti>; originally
>>> belonged to the ?rainn/D?irine as well, but were later counted among the
>>> E?ganachta for political reasons.[8]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-7>;
>>> [9]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-8>; Another
>>> prominent ?rainn people of early Munster are believed to have been the
>>> Mairtine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mairtine>;, who by the early
>>> historical period have completely vanished from the Irish landscape,
>>> although they may be in part ancestral to the later D?isi Tuisceart<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Tuisceart>;
>>> and D?l gCais<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_gCais>.[10]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-9>;
>>> The D?isi Muman<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A9isi_Muman>; may also
>>> have had ?rainn origins, but this has long been disputed.
>> Note that Osraige is Ossory - where my family comes from.
>> It seems likely the Iverni were related to the
>> Darini<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini>; of
>>> eastern Ulster<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster>.[11]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-10>; The
>>> name "Darini" implies descent from an ancestor called D?ire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire>;,
>>> (**D?rios*)[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3>; as
>>> claimed by several historical peoples identified as ?rainn, including the
>>> D?l Riata and D?l Fiatach in eastern Ulster[12]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-11>; as
>>> well the ?rainn of Munster. An early name for Dundrum, County Down<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dundrum,_County_Down>;,
>>> is recorded as *D?n Droma D?irine*, and the name D?irine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>; was
>>> applied to the Corcu Lo?gde, further suggesting a relationship between the
>>> Darini and the Iverni.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3>;
>> The genealogies trace the descent of the ?rainn from two separate eponymous
>>> ancestors, Ailill ?rann and ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>;.
>>> Legendary relatives of the latter include the Cland Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cland_Dedad>; (offspring
>>> of Deda mac Sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deda_mac_Sin>;), a Munster
>>> people who appear in the Ulster Cycle<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Cycle>;,
>>> led by C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>;, son of D?ire
>>> mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad>;, and the
>>> legendary High King<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_King_of_Ireland>; Conaire
>>> M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>;, grandson of Iar and
>>> ancestor of the S?l Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>;.
>>> The historical sept of the U? Maicc Iair ("grandsons of the son of Iar") and
>>> the MAQI IARI of ogham inscriptions also appear to be related.[13]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-12>; The
>>> personal name *Iar* is simply another variant of the root present in
>>> Iverni and ?rainn.[14]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-13>; Finally,
>>> the name *?th*, given in the genealogies as the ultimate ancestor of the
>>> Corcu Lo?gde (D?irine) and offering some confusion about their parentage and
>>> relation to the Iverni, in fact preserves the same Indo-European root *
>>> *peiH-* ("to be fat, swell"),[15]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-14>; thus
>>> in effect completing a basic picture of the Iverni/?rainn and their kindred
>>> in later historical Ireland.
>> C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>; = Conroy
>> Conaire = Conroy
>> T. F. O'Rahilly<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._F._O%27Rahilly>; identified
>>> the ?rainn with the mythological Fir Bolg<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fir_Bolg>; and
>>> the historical Belgae<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgae>; of Gaul<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul>;
>>> and Britain<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain>;. He proposed
>>> that they invaded from Britain and spoke a Brythonic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brythonic_languages>; language,
>>> which he named Ivernic and identified with a language referred to in a
>>> number of early sources as *Iarnnb?lrae*, *Iarnb?lrae*, and *Iarmb?rla*,
>>> which, if treated as Old Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish>;,
>>> means "Iron-speech". The 9th-century Irish dictionary *Sanas Cormaic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanas_Cormaic>;
>>> * ("Cormac's glossary") describes *Iarnnb?lrae* as a recently extinct
>>> language which was "dense and difficult", and records two words which
>>> derived from it.[4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-OR-3>; However,
>>> by the proto-historical period the ?rainn were evidently Goidelic<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goidelic>-speaking,
>>> as evidenced by the fact that ogham<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogham>; inscriptions
>>> in Primitive Irish<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Irish>; are most
>>> abundant in Counties Cork and Kerry.[16]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn#cite_note-15>;
>> More on C? Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD>;:
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C?_Ro?
>> Cheers,
>> Paul
>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Paul Conroy<> wrote:
>>> Gerry,
>>> I posted the following about 1 year ago on this list:
>>> Going back to the original subject, I see more info on "Conaire M?r"
>>> (Conroy the Great) here:
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r
>>> Specifically that:
>>> A descendant of ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>;,
>>> Conaire belonged to the legendary Clanna Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad>;,
>>> the legendary royal family of the ?rainn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89rainn>;.
>>> His descendants in Ireland and Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotland>; were
>>> known as the S?l Conairi<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi>;.
>>> The last king in the direct male line from Conaire M?r was Alexander III
>>> of Scotland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_III_of_Scotland>;.
>>> The Clanna Dedad has an interesting geneology:<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>;
>>> Descent of the Clanna Dedad
>>> Skipped generations are given in the notes.
>>> - Sen mac Rosin<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sen_mac_Rosin&action=edit&redlink=1>;
>>> [22]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-21>;
>>> - Dedu mac Sin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dedu_mac_Sin>; a quo *Clanna
>>> Dedad*
>>> - ?ar mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Dar_mac_Dedad>;
>>> - Ailill Anglonnach<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ailill_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1>;
>>> - ?ogan [23]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-22>;
>>> - Etersc?l<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etersc%C3%A9l>;
>>> - Conaire M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_M%C3%B3r>; a
>>> quo *S?l Conaire*
>>> - Mug L?ma
>>> - Conaire C?em<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaire_C%C3%B3em>;
>>> [24]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-23>;
>>> - Eochaid (Cairpre) Riata (Rigfhota), a quo
>>> - *D?l Riata<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Riata>;
>>> *
>>> - Erc of Dalriada<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erc_of_Dalriada>;
>>> [25]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-24>;
>>> - Fergus M?r<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fergus_M%C3%B3r>;
>>> - Domangart R?ti<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domangart_R%C3%A9ti>;
>>> - Gabr?n mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabr%C3%A1n_mac_Domangairt>;,
>>> a quo
>>> - *Cen?l nGabr?in*
>>> - *House of Alpin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Alpin>;
>>> *
>>> - *House of Dunkeld<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Dunkeld>;
>>> *
>>> - Comgall mac Domangairt<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comgall_mac_Domangairt>;,
>>> a quo
>>> - *Cen?l Comgaill*
>>> - Loarn mac Eirc<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loarn_mac_Eirc>;,
>>> a quo
>>> - *Cen?l Loairn*
>>> - *House of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Moray>;
>>> *
>>> - *Mormaers of Moray<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormaers_of_Moray>;
>>> *
>>> - ?engus M?r mac Eirc, a quo
>>> - *Cen?l n?engusa<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cen%C3%A9l_n%C3%93engusa>;
>>> *
>>> - Cairpre M?sc<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cairpre_M%C3%BAsc&action=edit&redlink=1>;,
>>> a quo
>>> - *M?scraige<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%BAscraige>;
>>> *
>>> - Corc Duibne, a quo
>>> - *Corcu Duibne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Duibne>;
>>> *
>>> - Cairpre Bascha?n, a quo
>>> - *Corcu Baiscind<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Baiscind>;
>>> *
>>> - D?ire mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_mac_Dedad>; /
>>> Dairi Sirchrechtaig / D?ire Doimthech<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1ire_Doimthech>;
>>> - C? Ro? mac D?ire<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%BA_Ro%C3%AD_mac_D%C3%A1ire>;
>>> - Lugaid mac Con Ro?<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugaid_mac_Con_Ro%C3%AD>;
>>> - Fuirme mac Con Ro? [26]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-25>;
>>> - (F)Iatach Find<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>;,
>>> a quo
>>> - *D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach>;
>>> *
>>> - *D?irine<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1irine>;*
>>> - *Corcu Lo?gde<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcu_Lo%C3%ADgde>;
>>> * [27]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-26>;
>>> [28]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-27>;
>>> - Conganchnes mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conganchnes_mac_Dedad>;
>>> - Conall Anglonnach mac Dedad<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Conall_Anglonnach&action=edit&redlink=1>;
>>> ,[29]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-28>; a
>>> quo
>>> - *Conaille Muirtheimne<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conaille_Muirtheimne>;
>>> *
>>> - Eochaid (Echdach/Echach) mac Sin [30]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-29>;
>>> - Deitsin/Deitsini
>>> - Dl?thaich/Dluthaig
>>> - D?ire/Dairi
>>> - Fir furmi [31]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-30>;
>>> - Fiatach Finn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiatach_Finn>;
>>> [32]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-31>; /
>>> Fiachach Fir Umai [33]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clanna_Dedad#cite_note-32>;
>>> - *D?l Fiatach<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C3%A1l_Fiatach>;
>>> *
>>> So the Dal Fiatach are actually related to the Dal Riata, both of North
>>> Eastern Ireland.
>>> They are also related to tribes in the South West of Ireland:
>>> 1. Corcu Duibne - West Co Kerry, Dingle Penninsula and related areas -
>>> O'Shea, O'Falvey and O'Connell
>>> 2. Corcu Lo?gde - West Co Cork - O'Driscoll (R-M222), Coffey<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffey>;
>>> , O'Leary<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Leary>;, Hennessy<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hennessy_(disambiguation)>;
>>> , Flynn<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn>;, Dinneen<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinneen>;
>>> . O'Hea<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O%27Hea>;, Cronin<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronin>;
>>> , Dunlea<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dunlea&action=edit&redlink=1>;
>>> 3. Corcu Bascind - South Co Clare - O'Baskin, MacDermot,
>>> O'Donnell/MacDonnell (R-M222), MacMahon
>>> Cheers,
>>> Paul
>>> On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Gerry<> wrote:
>>>> John,
>>>> I might be able to shed some light on the Y-DNA of the D?l Fiatach, from
>>>> two
>>>> sources. One is the McEvoy study and the other is some research that Jerry
>>>> Kelly, of this list, has just done for me.
>>>> =========================================================================
>>>> 1) McEvoy et al.
>>>> John posted this some time ago which he culled from the McEvoy study:
>>>> Dunleavy Haughey MCGUINNESS
>>>> 5 M222 of 12 14 M222 of 19 24 M222 of 99
>>>> Ulster (1) Most in Ulster Ulster
>>>> (11)
>>>> Leinster (2) Associated with Donegal&Armagh Connacht (10)
>>>> Munster (1) O hEochaidh Leinster
>>>> (3)
>>>> Connacht (1)
>>>> I post the McGuinnes just to emphasize what John posted below. They are
>>>> generally not M222, but HG I.
>>>> McEvoy normalized all of his names to one spelling. He normalized Haughey
>>>> and McGuinness, so we don't know the original spellings of
>>>> Haughey/Hoey/Hoy.
>>>> As John noted above, the Haughey spelling is common in Donegal and Armagh
>>>> while Hoey/Hoy is common in Louth and the surrounding counties.
>>>> The Annals say that the Mac Dunveavys were expelled by the Normans from
>>>> Ulidia and some went to Donegal (McInulty sp?). It is also said that some
>>>> of
>>>> the ? hEochaidh went with them since they were really the same family,
>>>> (see
>>>> Jerry Kelly's work below).
>>>> So, if any of McEvoy's M222 Haughey were from Donegal, they were from D?l
>>>> Fiatach, which was their region of Ulidia. This points to the D?l Fiatach
>>>> being M222.
>>>> If any of McEvoy's Haughey were from the Louth area, they were really
>>>> Hoey/Hoy/? hEochaidh. The ? hEochaidh were from D?l Fiatach. My family is
>>>> Hoy from mid-Louth and is M222. This points to the D?l Fiatach being M222.
>>>> Note. A NPE from say, Donegal for my Louth family, is not likely since my
>>>> M222 matches are half Irish and half Scots, which makes sense for a family
>>>> based near Downptrick.
>>>> ===========================================================================
>>>> 2) Jerry Kelly's research.
>>>> I thrashed around for months trying to understand what the Annals that I
>>>> had
>>>> access to, meant about my family. I gave up and went to Jerry Kelly who is
>>>> a
>>>> fluent Irish speaker and also understands the nuances of the Annals.
>>>> He found that the ? hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshl?ibhe were on the main branch of
>>>> the D?l Fiatach rulers and that the Mac Duinnshl?ibhe had barely split
>>>> from
>>>> the ? hEochaidh before the Normans arrived.
>>>> ?So for instance when after 1137 the Dal Fiatach kingship was confined
>>>> to the descendants of Donn Sleibe Mac Eochada (slain in 1091), the
>>>> rigdamnai
>>>> set themselves apart from the rest of the family by using the name Mac
>>>> Duinnshleibhe (Donleavy)." Byrne, page 128
>>>> The ? hEochaidh family, (Sloinne ? hEochaidh as Jerry taught me) took the
>>>> name from Eochaidh mac Ardghair, who died in 979. Before that it was just
>>>> "son of, son of, ..."
>>>> Jerry used the non-translated Irish Annals to trace the line back reliably
>>>> to 455 and less reliably earlier.
>>>> So the ? hEochaidh/Mac Duinnshl?ibhe line were the ruling family of D?l
>>>> Fiatach back to the time of Patrick. Jerry has another story of how the
>>>> family got to Louth with the help of the O'Loughlins and O'Carrols, but
>>>> that
>>>> is for another time.
>>>> ==========================================================================
>>>> Conclusion.
>>>> With McEvoy's Haugheys and Jerry's work with the Annals and my M222 test
>>>> and
>>>> unusual matches, I pretty sure that the D?l Fiatach were M222, at least on
>>>> the main line.
>>>> We also know that in tribal societies, the bottom tier doesn't reproduce
>>>> itself and the top tier over produces. So some people fall down each
>>>> generation and eventually, on the male line, everyone is related. So if
>>>> the
>>>> ruling line is M222, so are all.
>>>> Gerry Hoy
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From:
>>>> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 11:58 PM
>>>> To:
>>>> Subject: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800
>>>> Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui
>>>> Neill
>>>> (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move north into
>>>> Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin, natives of
>>>> the
>>>> territory. I do not know yet if he ties this into the Venicnii of
>>>> Ptolemy
>>>> (I only have one chapter copied) but he does mention a Winducatti in the
>>>> Dunfanaghy area of Donegal which might be the same tribe. Much of his
>>>> argument is based on Tirechan's Collectanea, dated to 690 AD. He tries
>>>> to
>>>> connect the Cenel Conaill to the Ui Eachach Cobha and the Cenel Eoghain
>>>> to the Dal Fiatach, two familiar tribes from Ulster. In that he seems
>>>> completely off-base.
>>>> Can anyone connect M222 to either of these tribes?
>>>> The Ui Eachach Cobha in particular were said to be Cruithin as an off
>>>> shoot
>>>> of the Dal nAraidi. The historical chieftains were the Maguinnes of Co.
>>>> Down, whose chieftains were I haplogroup according to Patrick Guinness,
>>>> associated with the Trinity DNA project. If anyone has the slightest
>>>> idea
>>>> what Dal Fiatach DNA looks like I haven't heard about it.
>>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>>>> -------------------------------
>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 20:12:31 -0400 (EDT)
>> From:
>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
>> To:
>> Message-ID:<>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
>> writes:
>> But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did not have ready access
>> to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac
>> Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through O'Donovan's TRIBES AND
>> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally published by De B?rca
>> Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght disagree on a family origin,
>> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right.
>> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a while.
>> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end. Not for the faint of heart.
>> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_
>> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm)
>> I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a copy of O'Hart's Irish
>> pedigrees open on his desk at all times. I don't know if that's true or
>> not. It was not comforting to hear.
>> John
>> ------------------------------
>> End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 276
>> ******************************************
> ------------------------------
> End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 279
> ******************************************

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