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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-08 > 1314281133


From: Susan Hedeen <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 277
Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2011 10:05:33 -0400
References: <mailman.278.1314216837.29172.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.278.1314216837.29172.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>


The peopling of Europe and the cautionary tale of Y chromosome lineage
R-M269

Here, we have confirmed with the broadest analysis to date that the
spatial distribution of Y chromosome haplogroup M269 can be split by
R-S127 into European and western Eurasian lineages. Contrary to the
results of Balaresque, we see no relationship between diversity and
longitude (figure 2
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#F2>;)
for R-M269. The presence of two sets of populations in the Balaresque
paper appears to be causal to the observed relationship: the
underestimated diversity of the Irish population and the inclusion of
the Turkish chromosomes, the majority of which potentially belong to the
non-European clade R-M269(xS127). When these elements are properly taken
into account, jointly or independently, the correlation no longer
exists. This correlation is the central tenet to the hypothesis that
R-M269 was spread with expanding Neolithic farmers.

Morelli /et al/. [22
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-22>;]
(hereafter 'Morelli') found STR motifs that split R-M269 into eastern
and western lineages. We observed that 71 per cent of the Myres /et al/.
R-M269(xS127) chromosomes for which STR information is available have
the eastern motif (DYS393-12/DYS461-10), while 80 per cent of the R-S127
chromosomes of Myres /et al/. have the western motif
(DYS393-13/DYS461-11). No R-S127 chromosomes displayed the eastern
motif, while 5 per cent of R-M269(xS127) chromosomes displayed the
western motif (all of which were either L23 (S141) or M412
(S127)-derived). In both cases, however, these motifs differed from
those suggested by Morelli by having one repeat less at the DYS461
locus. The dichotomy observed by Morelli based on a two STR motif is
therefore corroborated, at least in part, by the presence of this SNP.

Dating of Y chromosome lineages is notoriously controversial [25
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-25>,41
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-41>--44
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-44>;],
the major issue being that the choice of STR mutation rate can lead to
age estimates that differ by a factor of three (i.e. the evolutionary
[25
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-25>;]
versus observed (genealogical) mutation rates [33
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-33>,45
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-45>;]).
Interestingly, despite the fact that Myres /et al/. and Balaresque used
different STR mutation rates and dating approaches, their TMRCA
estimates overlap: 8590--11 950 years using a mutation rate of 6.9 ×
10^-4 per generation, and 4577--9063 years using an average mutation
rate of 2.3 × 10^-3 , respectively. Separately, Morelli calculated the
TMRCA based only on Sardinian and Anatolian chromosomes, and estimated
the R-M269 lineage to have originated 25 000--80 700 years ago) [22
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-22>;],
based on the same evolutionary mutation rate [25
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-25>,41
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-41>;]
as Myres /et al/.

In seeking to find a suitable set of STRs with which to estimate the
average coalescence time, /T/, of sub-haplogroup R-S127, we have shown
that not all STRs are of equal use in this context. We concentrated on
estimating the duration of linearity, /D/, using different sets of STRs.
Our analyses suggest that the /D/ of an STR is key to its ability to
uncover deep ancestry. Duration of linearity refers to the length of
time into the past over which ASD and /T/ continue to be linearly
related for a specific STR. Goldstein /et al/. [26
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-26>;]
showed that /D/ is affected by two properties of the STRs used to
calculate ASD: the mutation rate and range of possible alleles that the
STR can take. When we manipulated our choice of STR marker based on
/?/(/R/)/2/?/ (a surrogate for /D/; table 1
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#T1>;),
we found that different sets of STRs gave different values for /T/. It
is clear, then, that coalescence estimates explicitly depend on the STRs
that one uses.

Our analysis confirms that this phenomenon is not specific to the R-M269
haplogroup nor to methods using ASD. Figure 4
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#F4>/b/
shows that STRs with high /D/ produce larger estimates of /T/. What is
clear is that estimates of /T/ implicitly depend on the STRs that are
selected to make this inference. Using BATWING on an HGDP population for
which 65 Y-STRs are available, we have shown that the median estimate of
TMRCA can differ by over five times when STRs are selected on the basis
of the expected duration of linearity (electronic supplementary
material, figure S4). While researchers take into account STR mutation
rates when estimating divergence time with ASD, commonly used STRs do
not have the specific attributes that allow linearity to be assumed
further into the past. The majority of haplogroup dates based on such
sets of STRs may therefore have been systematically underestimated.

Previous Section
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#sec-7>Next
Section
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ack-1>;


5. Conclusion

The distributions of the main R-S127 sub-haplogroups, R-S21, R-S145 and
R-S28, show markedly localized concentrations (figure 3
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#F3>;).
If the R-M269 lineage is more recent in origin than the Neolithic
expansion, then its current distribution would have to be the result of
major population movements occurring since that origin. For this
haplogroup to be so ubiquitous, the population carrying R-S127 would
have displaced most of the populations present in western Europe after
the Neolithic agricultural transition. Alternatively, if R-S127
originated prior to the Neolithic wave of expansion, then either it was
already present in most of Europe before the expansion, or the mutation
occurred in the east, and was spread before or after the expansion, in
which case we would expect higher diversity in the east closer to the
origins of agriculture, which is not what we observe. The maps of R-S127
sub-haplogroup frequencies for R-S21, R-S145 and R-S28 show radial
distributions from specific European locations (figure 3
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#F3>;).
These centres have high absolute frequencies: R-S21 has a frequency of
44 per cent in Friesland, and R-S28 reaches 25 per cent in the Alps; and
in the populations where they are at the highest frequency, the vast
majority of R-S127 belong to that particular sub-lineage. For example,
half of all R-M269 across southern Europe is R-S28-derived, and around
60 per cent of R-M269 in Central Europe is R-S21-derived. At the
sub-haplogroup level, then, R-M269 is split into geographically
localized pockets with individual R-M269 sub-haplogroups dominating,
suggesting that the frequency of R-M269 across Europe could be related
to the growth of multiple, geographically specific sub-lineages that
differ in different parts of Europe.

A recent analysis of radiocarbon dates of Neolithic sites across Europe
[46
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-46>;]
reveals that the spread of the Neolithic was by no means constant, and
that several 'centres of renewed expansion' are visible across Europe,
representing areas of colonization, three of which map intriguingly
closely to the centres of the sub-haplogroups foci (electronic
supplementary material, figure S3). Future work involving spatially
explicit simulations, together with accurate measures of Y chromosome
diversity, are needed to investigate how the current distribution of
sub-haplogroups may have been produced. In this context, recent work by
Sjödin & François [47
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-47>;]
rejected a Palaeolithic dispersion for R1b-M269 using spatial
simulations based on the dataset of Balaresque. Nevertheless, we note
that additional work is still necessary as these authors were not aware
of the limitation of the Balaresque dataset presented here, and did not
fully explore the impact of the different molecular characteristics of
the investigated loci on their analysis.

Age estimates based on sets of Y-STRs carefully selected to possess the
attributes necessary for uncovering deep ancestry (for example, from the
almost 200 recently characterized here [33
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-33>;]),
and from whole Y chromosome sequence comparisons, will provide robust
dates for this haplogroup in the future. For now, we can offer no date
as to the age of R-M269 or R-S127, but believe that our STR analyses
suggest the recent age estimates of R-M269 [20
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-20>;]
and R-S116 [21
<http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.full#ref-21>;]
are likely to be younger than the true values, and the homogeneity of
STR variance and distribution of sub-types across the continent are
inconsistent with the hypothesis of the Neolithic diffusion of the
R-M269 Y chromosome lineage.

>
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
> subject and the body of the message
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:12:22 -0400
> From: Paul Conroy<>
> Subject: [R-M222] R-L21 M222+ Percentages in Europe by Country and/or
> Region
> To: dna-r1b1c7<>
> Message-ID:
> <CA+2t2c4kwCWg+>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Here is a must read supplementary data spreadsheet, which lays out the
> percentages of R1b and particularly R-L21 M222+ per country and/or region:
> http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1
>
> Look at Tab "TableS1-HG frequencies" and then Column "T"
>
> I've extracted out the data on M222 and created images of it:
> 1. http://i56.tinypic.com/343jkuo.png - Summary of both studies results
>
> 2. http://i52.tinypic.com/2d8i1jb.png - Summary of each study separately
>
>
> Some interesting highlights on the frequency of M222+ are that:
> 1. EAST Ireland 20-25% of R1b is M222+
> 2. West Scotland (14.29%)> North East Scotland (10.45%)> North West
> Scotland (6.25%)
> 3. France 6.24%
> 4. Germany 5.26%
> 5. Sweden 1.44%
> 6. Norway 1.45%
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:45:27 -0400
> From: Paul Conroy<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
> To:
> Message-ID:
> <CA+2t2c6jQL+zVpHOSCkxm-rLdF4VgCzVXkfXNZ7xy=>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Jerry, Gerry,
>
> Is there any connection between:
> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn
>
> When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following:
> http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html
>
> Which list the same person as:
> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi*
> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi*
>
> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the Mountains", as opposed to
> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort"
>
> What say ye??
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jerry Kelly<>wrote:
>
>> Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but (in
>> my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to
>> English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with
>> the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last
>> week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac
>> Duinnshl?ibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the ? hEochaidh
>> sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around.
>>
>> Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line.
>> I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos,
>> excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's
>> handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the
>> printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the project.
>> Bu?ochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De B?rca edition (2003)
>> so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand).
>>
>> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> Treibheanna ?ireannacha
>> www.irishtribes.com
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 8/23/11, <> wrote:
>>
>>> From: <>
>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
>>> To:
>>> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight
>>> Time,
>>>
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did
>>> not have ready access
>>> to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of
>>> Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac
>>> Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through
>>> O'Donovan's TRIBES AND
>>> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY
>>> FIACHRACH. After waiting for
>>> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally
>>> published by De B?rca
>>> Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght
>>> disagree on a family origin,
>>> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right.
>>>
>>> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a
>>> while.
>>> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end.
>>> Not for the faint of heart.
>>>
>>> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_
>>>
>>> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a
>>> copy of O'Hart's Irish
>>> pedigrees open on his desk at all times.
>>> I don't know if that's true or
>>> not. It was not comforting to hear.
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>>
>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>
>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
>>> subject and the body of the message
>>>
>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>
>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:10:00 +0100
> From: "Sandy Paterson"<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
> To:<>
> Message-ID:<000001cc6299$ce156a10$6a403e30$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Oh aye the noo. Thanks for a breath of sanity.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy
> Sent: 24 August 2011 20:45
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
>
> Jerry, Gerry,
>
> Is there any connection between:
> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn
>
> When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following:
> http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html
>
> Which list the same person as:
> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi*
> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi*
>
> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the Mountains", as opposed to
> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort"
>
> What say ye??
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jerry Kelly
> <>wrote:
>
>> Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but
> (in
>> my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to
>> English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with
>> the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last
>> week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac
>> Duinnshl?ibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the ? hEochaidh
>> sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around.
>>
>> Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line.
>> I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos,
>> excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's
>> handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the
>> printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the
> project.
>> Bu?ochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De B?rca edition
> (2003)
>> so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand).
>>
>> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> Treibheanna ?ireannacha
>> www.irishtribes.com
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 8/23/11, <> wrote:
>>
>>> From: <>
>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
>>> To:
>>> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight
>>> Time,
>>>
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did
>>> not have ready access
>>> to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of
>>> Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac
>>> Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through
>>> O'Donovan's TRIBES AND
>>> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY
>>> FIACHRACH. After waiting for
>>> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally
>>> published by De B?rca
>>> Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght
>>> disagree on a family origin,
>>> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right.
>>>
>>> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a
>>> while.
>>> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end.
>>> Not for the faint of heart.
>>>
>>> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_
>>>
>>> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a
>>> copy of O'Hart's Irish
>>> pedigrees open on his desk at all times.
>>> I don't know if that's true or
>>> not. It was not comforting to hear.
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>>
>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>
>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
>>> subject and the body of the message
>>>
>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>
>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 13:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jerry Kelly<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
> To:
> Message-ID:
> <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> A Ph?il a chara,
>
> Go raibh maith agat. / Thank you.
>
> We have to resort to Irish grammar to translate these. Donn Sliabh ('Brown Mountain') would be the original warrior-name in the nominative form, the form used when the noun is the subject of a sentence. In those days, the adjective could precede or succeed the noun, unlike today when it usually comes after the noun.
>
> The usual genitive form of Donn Sliabh in that period was Duinn Sl?ibe or Duinn Sl?ibi ('Of Brown Mountain'), today's Duinnshl?ibhe.
>
> So I would translate Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi as Cormac (Chariot-Son) son of Brown Mountain and Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi as Cormac grandson of Brown Mountain.
>
> To write Cormac Dunn ('Brown Cormac') of the Mountain in that period, we'd need to write either Donn Cormac na Sl?ibhi/e or Cormac Donn na Sl?ibhi/e.
>
> To write Brown Cormac of a (any old) mountain in that period, we'd need to write either Donn Cormac Sl?ibhe/i or Cormac Donn Sl?ibhi/e.
>
> To write Brown Cormac of the mountains in that period, we'd write either Donn Cormac na Sl?ibti/e or Cormac Donn na Sl?ibte/i.
>
> You point out correctly that d?n is the nominative of fort and d?in is its genitive.
>
> Go raibh s? sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful.
>
> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
> Jerry
>
> Treibheanna ?ireannacha
> www.irishtribes.com
>
>
> --- On Wed, 8/24/11, Paul Conroy<> wrote:
>
>> From: Paul Conroy<>
>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
>> To:
>> Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 3:45 PM
>> Jerry, Gerry,
>>
>> Is there any connection between:
>> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn
>>
>> When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following:
>> http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html
>>
>> Which list the same person as:
>> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi*
>> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi*
>>
>> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the
>> Mountains", as opposed to
>> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort"
>>
>> What say ye??
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 277
> ******************************************
>


This thread: