DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-08 > 1314221018


From: Susan Hedeen <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 277
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 17:23:57 -0400
References: <mailman.278.1314216837.29172.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.278.1314216837.29172.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>


A couple of things in regard to the last two posts just to throw out
there. I think I need not remind anyone that the tissue samples for the
DNA testing are contemporary -- some on with in the last 10 or so years
swabbed and gave it up. At the time of registration and/or somewhat
later those testing related where they believed their oldest known
ancestor resided. This belief may have been actual fact and/or the
result of good genealogy or best guess. What the data base then shows
is the result of that information as it is revealed.

As an example, when we registered our family test subject, we knew that
our oldest known ancestor who also happened to be the immigrant into the
colonies in 1754/5 sailed from the port of Londonderry. We had the
anecdotal stories that indeed they resided in Ulster and had for perhaps
4 generations previous to hopping the pond. We also knew, however
because of these same stories handed down that they were Ulster Scots
and to support this the men and women alike for the first several
generations post immigration married those with Scot and/or Ulster Scot
names and they were staunch Presbyterians.

What their M222 shows is that indeed they were from Ireland and probably
Ulster but does not really speak to Scotland beyond the knowledge that
others who claimed Scotland the environ of their oldest known ancestor
also carry M222.

How many hundreds of years have passed since the estimated origins of
M222 where ever it formed up? People migrate now as they did then.
Names change either because record keepers recording in English entered
them into the record phonetically. Some families change the spellings
of their names -- our McC's are one prime example of that, and as it is
spelled by all the variations does not resemble what it was originally
in Gaelic.

Now onto mutations. In addition to mutations which one would suspect
(and we have been told by those who claim to know more) would mutate
over a certain number of generations, some more readily than others,
apparently there are environmental factors which also will cause
mutation. Some of those I have seen are some investigative medical
diagnostic procedures, some diseases themselves, chemical exposures
particularly some of those found in the farming industry among other
places -- and how many men have gone to war -- think about the chemical
exposures during WWI, II and Viet Nam just to mention a few -- extreme
stress, and the list goes on.

I think Bill has mentioned the problem of str mutations many times in
reference to predictions of any number of things using the data from dna
alone.

You know, we all can drive ourselves bats over a few things, and name
changes and STR mutations are two of them. Susan

On 8/24/2011 4:13 PM, wrote:
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800
> (Bernard Morgan)
> 2. Problems with using STR values alone to determine TMRCA
> calculations (Paul Conroy)
> 3. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Jerry Kelly)
> 4. R-L21 M222+ Percentages in Europe by Country and/or Region
> (Paul Conroy)
> 5. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Paul Conroy)
> 6. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Sandy Paterson)
> 7. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh (Jerry Kelly)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 13:18:04 +0000
> From: Bernard Morgan<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD
> 500-800
> To: dna-r1b1c7<>
> Message-ID:<>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>> I have mentioned this theme many times before on the list. For example
>> "O'Duinn" were originally Anglicized to Doyen, then Doyne, then Dunn, then
>> Dunne - so especially with emigrants leaving for the US or elsewhere, the
>> earlier the time of emigration, the earlier the Anglicized variant of their
>> name they will have. So I have matches with people called Doyen, so I can
>> say with some confidence that they emigrated 150 to 200 years ago.
>
> This is an old chestnut of the name and leads to the unanswered question why are the there so many M222+ Dunns in the southern half of Ireland?
>
> One possibility is that they are the displaced O'Dubhain, Lords of Cnodhbha. This would make Sil Aeda Slaine M222+ and we would expect to see other major members of this kinship also being M222+. Such surnames as: O'Kellys (kings of Bregia); O'Connolly ((possible related MacSherry sept) who are known to have moved into Ulster and settle on MacMahon's lands in Co. Monaghan); and fellow princes like the O'Regan.
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 12:13:38 -0400
> From: Paul Conroy<>
> Subject: [R-M222] Problems with using STR values alone to determine
> TMRCAcalculations
> To: dna-r1b1c7<>
> Message-ID:
> <CA+2t2c7e9TwX5U-7XtFJfzx58Xvnc=>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Just want to draw attention to a new article on estimating the age of R1b
> haplotypes using *just STR values* - the synopsis by Dienekes is exactly the
> same criticism that I leveled at attempts on this list to do the same for
> R-L21 M222+, without reference to SNPs, just using STR values:
>
> *It is also probably consistent with the idea that Y-STR based estimates are
>> suspect because of deviations from the linear model.*
>
> Like I previously mentioned, STR values increase over time, but importantly
> decrease over time too, and not in a linear fashion. So an STR that has been
> steadily increasing from it's upstream value, can suddenly decrease. When I
> look at my own STR values, and my closest matching Dunn(s) families, who
> share a number of Off-Modal values with me, such as DYS449=32 and CDYb=41,
> I'm struck by the fact that my DYS391=10, and theirs is DYS391=11. DYS391 is
> a slow moving marker, let's say for arguments sake its mutation rate is once
> every 1,000 years, well it would seem that such a mutation occurred in my
> line recently, after the other Off-Modals occurred.
>
> So essentially lineages go on a statistical "random walk", and one lineage
> can end up looking similar, and another different from a common founder
> lineage, in a non-linear fashion. So extracting the correct aging is fraught
> with difficulty.
>
> As the 1,000 Genomes project and others have shown recently, there are many
> SNPs out there, and many more to be discovered, which are invaluable, as
> they do follow a linear pattern, and exact branching of lineages can be
> determined by their use.
>
>
> http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/08/back-to-drawing-board-for-r-m269-busby.html
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 11:42:39 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jerry Kelly<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
> To:
> Message-ID:
> <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but (in my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac Duinnshl?ibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the ? hEochaidh sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around.
>
> Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line. I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos, excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the project. Bu?ochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De B?rca edition (2003) so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand).
>
> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
> Jerry
>
>
> Treibheanna ?ireannacha
> www.irishtribes.com
>
>
> --- On Tue, 8/23/11, <> wrote:
>
>> From: <>
>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
>> To:
>> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM
>>
>>
>> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight
>> Time,?
>>
>> writes:
>>
>> But,? from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did
>> not have ready access
>> to???Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of
>> Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac?
>> Fhirbhisigh.? He could only get at parts of it through
>> O'Donovan's TRIBES? AND
>> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY
>> FIACHRACH.? After? waiting for
>> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally
>> published by? De B?rca
>> Books in 2003.? So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght
>> disagree on a? family origin,
>> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right.
>>
>> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a
>> while.???
>> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end.?
>> Not for the faint of? heart.
>>
>> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_
>>
>> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I read a? story once that said that MacLysaght had a
>> copy of O'Hart's Irish
>> pedigrees? open on his desk at all times.?
>> I? don't know if that's true or?
>> not.? It was not comforting to hear.
>>
>>
>> John
>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>
>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
>> subject and the body of the message
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:12:22 -0400
> From: Paul Conroy<>
> Subject: [R-M222] R-L21 M222+ Percentages in Europe by Country and/or
> Region
> To: dna-r1b1c7<>
> Message-ID:
> <CA+2t2c4kwCWg+>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Here is a must read supplementary data spreadsheet, which lays out the
> percentages of R1b and particularly R-L21 M222+ per country and/or region:
> http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1
>
> Look at Tab "TableS1-HG frequencies" and then Column "T"
>
> I've extracted out the data on M222 and created images of it:
> 1. http://i56.tinypic.com/343jkuo.png - Summary of both studies results
>
> 2. http://i52.tinypic.com/2d8i1jb.png - Summary of each study separately
>
>
> Some interesting highlights on the frequency of M222+ are that:
> 1. EAST Ireland 20-25% of R1b is M222+
> 2. West Scotland (14.29%)> North East Scotland (10.45%)> North West
> Scotland (6.25%)
> 3. France 6.24%
> 4. Germany 5.26%
> 5. Sweden 1.44%
> 6. Norway 1.45%
>
> Enjoy!
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 15:45:27 -0400
> From: Paul Conroy<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
> To:
> Message-ID:
> <CA+2t2c6jQL+zVpHOSCkxm-rLdF4VgCzVXkfXNZ7xy=>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Jerry, Gerry,
>
> Is there any connection between:
> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn
>
> When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following:
> http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html
>
> Which list the same person as:
> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi*
> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi*
>
> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the Mountains", as opposed to
> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort"
>
> What say ye??
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jerry Kelly<>wrote:
>
>> Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but (in
>> my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to
>> English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with
>> the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last
>> week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac
>> Duinnshl?ibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the ? hEochaidh
>> sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around.
>>
>> Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line.
>> I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos,
>> excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's
>> handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the
>> printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the project.
>> Bu?ochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De B?rca edition (2003)
>> so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand).
>>
>> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> Treibheanna ?ireannacha
>> www.irishtribes.com
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 8/23/11, <> wrote:
>>
>>> From: <>
>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
>>> To:
>>> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight
>>> Time,
>>>
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did
>>> not have ready access
>>> to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of
>>> Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac
>>> Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through
>>> O'Donovan's TRIBES AND
>>> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY
>>> FIACHRACH. After waiting for
>>> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally
>>> published by De B?rca
>>> Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght
>>> disagree on a family origin,
>>> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right.
>>>
>>> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a
>>> while.
>>> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end.
>>> Not for the faint of heart.
>>>
>>> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_
>>>
>>> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a
>>> copy of O'Hart's Irish
>>> pedigrees open on his desk at all times.
>>> I don't know if that's true or
>>> not. It was not comforting to hear.
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>>
>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>
>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
>>> subject and the body of the message
>>>
>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>
>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 21:10:00 +0100
> From: "Sandy Paterson"<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
> To:<>
> Message-ID:<000001cc6299$ce156a10$6a403e30$@com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Oh aye the noo. Thanks for a breath of sanity.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy
> Sent: 24 August 2011 20:45
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
>
> Jerry, Gerry,
>
> Is there any connection between:
> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn
>
> When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following:
> http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html
>
> Which list the same person as:
> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi*
> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi*
>
> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the Mountains", as opposed to
> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort"
>
> What say ye??
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 2:42 PM, Jerry Kelly
> <>wrote:
>
>> Thanks, John. And good point about O'Hart. It was a massive work, but
> (in
>> my opinion) badly misguided in trying to translate all Irish names to
>> English phonetic gobbledeegook, thereby breaking the clear, easy link with
>> the past. I wonder whether that contributed to its mistakes. In the last
>> week or so, Gerry Hoy and I found another one. In reality, the Mac
>> Duinnshl?ibhe sloinne / surnamed family descends from the ? hEochaidh
>> sloinne, but O'Hart had it the other way around.
>>
>> Many thanks for showing us Mac Firbhisigh's Leabhar na nGenelach on-line.
>> I did not know it was there. I'm amazed by the quality of the photos,
>> excellent condition of the manuscript, and beauty of Mac Firbhisigh's
>> handwriting. You can see how carefully he prepared his work for the
>> printing press at Louvain. Too bad they didn't go forward with the
> project.
>> Bu?ochas le Dia that we have it finally now in the De B?rca edition
> (2003)
>> so we don't have to go nuts with the nodanna (shorthand).
>>
>> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>> Treibheanna ?ireannacha
>> www.irishtribes.com
>>
>>
>> --- On Tue, 8/23/11, <> wrote:
>>
>>> From: <>
>>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
>>> To:
>>> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 8:12 PM
>>>
>>>
>>> In a message dated 8/23/2011 12:50:06 P.M. Central Daylight
>>> Time,
>>>
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did
>>> not have ready access
>>> to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of
>>> Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac
>>> Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through
>>> O'Donovan's TRIBES AND
>>> CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY
>>> FIACHRACH. After waiting for
>>> 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally
>>> published by De B?rca
>>> Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght
>>> disagree on a family origin,
>>> I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right.
>>>
>>> The MacFirbis genealogies have been online for quite a
>>> while.
>>> Un-translated of course with a weak index at the end.
>>> Not for the faint of heart.
>>>
>>> _http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm_
>>>
>>> (http://clanmaclochlainn.com/macfirb.htm)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I read a story once that said that MacLysaght had a
>>> copy of O'Hart's Irish
>>> pedigrees open on his desk at all times.
>>> I don't know if that's true or
>>> not. It was not comforting to hear.
>>>
>>>
>>> John
>>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>>
>>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>>> -------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>>
>>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the
>>> subject and the body of the message
>>>
>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>
>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
>> -------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 13:13:55 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Jerry Kelly<>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
> To:
> Message-ID:
> <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
> A Ph?il a chara,
>
> Go raibh maith agat. / Thank you.
>
> We have to resort to Irish grammar to translate these. Donn Sliabh ('Brown Mountain') would be the original warrior-name in the nominative form, the form used when the noun is the subject of a sentence. In those days, the adjective could precede or succeed the noun, unlike today when it usually comes after the noun.
>
> The usual genitive form of Donn Sliabh in that period was Duinn Sl?ibe or Duinn Sl?ibi ('Of Brown Mountain'), today's Duinnshl?ibhe.
>
> So I would translate Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi as Cormac (Chariot-Son) son of Brown Mountain and Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi as Cormac grandson of Brown Mountain.
>
> To write Cormac Dunn ('Brown Cormac') of the Mountain in that period, we'd need to write either Donn Cormac na Sl?ibhi/e or Cormac Donn na Sl?ibhi/e.
>
> To write Brown Cormac of a (any old) mountain in that period, we'd need to write either Donn Cormac Sl?ibhe/i or Cormac Donn Sl?ibhi/e.
>
> To write Brown Cormac of the mountains in that period, we'd write either Donn Cormac na Sl?ibti/e or Cormac Donn na Sl?ibte/i.
>
> You point out correctly that d?n is the nominative of fort and d?in is its genitive.
>
> Go raibh s? sin cabhrach. / Hope that's helpful.
>
> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
> Jerry
>
> Treibheanna ?ireannacha
> www.irishtribes.com
>
>
> --- On Wed, 8/24/11, Paul Conroy<> wrote:
>
>> From: Paul Conroy<>
>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe and Mac Firbhisigh
>> To:
>> Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2011, 3:45 PM
>> Jerry, Gerry,
>>
>> Is there any connection between:
>> Mac Duinnshl?ibhe and O'Duinn
>>
>> When I check the aforemnetioned URL, I get the following:
>> http://www.isos.dias.ie/libraries/NLI/NLI_MS_G_12/english/index.html
>>
>> Which list the same person as:
>> 1. *Cormac mac Duinn Sleibhi*
>> 2. *Cormac o Duinn Sleibhi*
>>
>> Which could be translated as "Cormac Dunne of the
>> Mountains", as opposed to
>> "Cormac of the Mountain Fort"
>>
>> What say ye??
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paul
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 277
> ******************************************
>


This thread: