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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-08 > 1314121770


From: Jerry Kelly <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
Date: Tue, 23 Aug 2011 10:49:30 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W181BC6CECC0EDC84A04EFFA92E0@phx.gbl>


Go raibh maith agat, a Iain. / Thank you, Iain.

I think you're right. As far as I know de Bhulbh was a native speaker.

But the amazing thing I remember from reading Woulfe's introduction to his book is that he collected much or most of his information, not just surnames but also clans and tribes, directly ó bhéalaibh na ndaoine / from the mouths of the people - aged refugees of the Great Hunger who roughly 60 years later he found as he was doing his rounds as a priest in poorhouses and hospitals in Scotland and England.

So, my understanding is that Woulfe had access to the oral tradition, strong and extremely accurate in Irish-speaking areas up until the Famine, while MacLysaght had access to almost all the manuscripts we have today. So I usually go on the assumption that MacLysaght's manuscripts correct the rare mistakes which crept into the béaloideas / oral tradition.

But, from what I can tell, however, MacLysaght did not have ready access to Leabhar na nGenelach (The Book of Genealogies) by Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh. He could only get at parts of it through O'Donovan's TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY MANY and TRIBES AND CUSTOMS OF HY FIACHRACH. After waiting for 350 years, Mac Fhirbhisigh's great work was finally published by De Búrca Books in 2003. So, when Woulfe and MacLysaght disagree on a family origin, I go to Mac Fhirbhisigh to see who's right.

Sin iad mo smaointe ar aon chuma. Go raibh siad cabhrach. / Those are my thoughts, anyway. Hope they're helpful.

Le gach dea-ghuí / Best,
Jerry



--- On Tue, 8/23/11, Iain Kennedy <> wrote:

> From: Iain Kennedy <>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
> To:
> Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2011, 2:30 AM
>
> > An excellent book, sometimes corrected by MacLysaght,
> but excellent nevertheless.
>
> Indeed, but frustratingly where he does 'correct' he gives
> no explanation or source as to why Woulfe was wrong,
> although in his introduction he makes much of the earlier
> lack of availability of Middle Irish dictionaries such as
> the massive RIA work. So what are to make of it when they
> disagree? Was his command of modern Irish better (he appears
> to only have been introduced to it in his college years
> whereas I believe Woulfe was a native speaker from the
> start) and how significant is the middle Irish issue? I
> would be interested in your thoughts.
> Iain
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:42:38 -0700
> > From:
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
> >
> > Bob a chara,
> >
> > MacLysaght is still under copyright buy Sloinnte
> Gaedheal Is Gall (Surnames of the Gaeil and Gaill) by an
> t-Athair Pádraig de Bhulbh (Fr. Patrick Woulfe) is
> available at:
> >
> > http://www.libraryireland.com/names/contents.php
> >
> > An excellent book, sometimes corrected by MacLysaght,
> but excellent nevertheless.
> >
> > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best,
> > Jerry
> >
> > Treibheanna Éireannacha
> > www.irishtribes.com
> >
> >
> > --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Bob Quinn <>
> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Bob Quinn <>
> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine - truly Uí
> Néill?
> > > To:
> > > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 12:38 PM
> > >
> > > Thank you, Gerry. Is there any way to get
> McLysacht's read
> > > on names other than to buy the book? I had
> no  luck on
> > > the Internet. Regards, Bob
> > >
> > > Bob Quinn
> > > President&CEO
> > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> > >
> > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street
> Partners
> > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable
> > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > T:610-331-4920
> > > e-mail:
> > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > >   
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >  > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 09:17:21 -0700
> > > > From:
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222]    Cenél
> Maine -
> > > truly Uí Néill?
> > > >
> > > > Bob a chara,
> > > >
> > > > Someone may have answered this already but
> Quinn is
> > > short for X Cuinn / X of Conn.  Cuinn is the
> genitive
> > > of Conn, a grammatical way to say 'of
> Conn'.  Mac Cuinn
> > > would be Son of Conn.  Ó Cuinn would be
> Grandson of
> > > Conn.  But the 'of' part is in Cuinn, not in
> Mac or
> > > Ó. 
> > > >
> > > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best,
> > > > Jerry
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sun, 8/21/11, Bob Quinn <>
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Bob Quinn <>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine -
> truly Uí
> > > Néill?
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Date: Sunday, August 21, 2011, 2:23 PM
> > > > >
> > > > > Would like to know his opinion.
> Everyone else
> > > thinks it is
> > > > > Son of Conn.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob Quinn
> > > > > President&CEO
> > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> > > > >
> > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay
> Street
> > > Partners
> > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's
> Roundtable
> > > > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > > > T:610-331-4920
> > > > > e-mail:
> > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > > > >   
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  > From:
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05
> +0100
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine
> - truly
> > > Uí
> > > > > Néill?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks Bob
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you or anyone else know what
> McLysacht
> > > gives for
> > > > > the derivation of the
> > > > > > surname Quinn?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sandy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From:
> > > > > > [mailto:]
> > > > > On Behalf Of Bob Quinn
> > > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél Maine
> - truly
> > > Uí
> > > > > Néill?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS
> 19,439,442.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob Quinn
> > > > > > President&CEO
> > > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical
> Consultants
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Partner at Bay Street
> Investors/Bay Street
> > > Partners
> > > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's
> Roundtable
> > > > > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > > > > T:610-331-4920
> > > > > > e-mail:
> > > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > > > > >   
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  > From:
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011
> 10:06:30 -0400
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenél
> Maine -
> > > truly Uí
> > > > > Néill?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'm interested in any
> resource for
> > > Haplotypes of
> > > > > the early Celts, so I'll
> > > > > > be watching for feedback. I am
> included in
> > > R-M222 and
> > > > > my Quinns/Murphys are
> > > > > > from Armagh. The Davidski studies
> indicate a
> > > higher
> > > > > Scandinavain component
> > > > > > for me than for most Irish. Does
> this mean
> > > anything to
> > > > > anybody?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bob Quinn
> > > > > > > President&CEO
> > > > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical
> Consultants
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Partner at Bay Street
> Investors/Bay
> > > Street
> > > > > Partners
> > > > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI
> Manufacturer's
> > > Roundtable
> > > > > > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > > > > > T:610-331-4920
> > > > > > > e-mail:
> > > > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > > > > > >   
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >  > From:
> > > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011
> 09:48:52
> > > +0100
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222]
> Cenél Maine
> > > - truly
> > > > > Uí Néill?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Bernard
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Do you think the
> MagCargamni is a
> > > candidate
> > > > > for the origins of
> > > > > > McHarg/Mac
> > > > > > > > Giolla Chairge? Also,
> can you
> > > point me to
> > > > > his haplotype?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I've found an
> interesting match
> > > between
> > > > > Ewing and a Quinn, with matches
> > > > > > at
> > > > > > > > DYS 19,439,442 =
> 15,13,11. I don't
> > > think the
> > > > > Quinn is from O'Quin
> > > > > > though. I
> > > > > > > > think he's from
> Mackquein, which
> > > may be from
> > > > > McEwen of Ottir.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Sandy
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >   
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -----Original
> Message-----
> > > > > > > > From:
> > > > > > > > [mailto:]
> > > > > On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan
> > > > > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011
> 07:04
> > > > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222]
> Cenél Maine
> > > - truly
> > > > > Uí Néill?
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Jerry,
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > > Of course I have a
> vested interest
> > > in
> > > > > understanding Cenel Maine, however
> > > > > > I
> > > > > > > > hadn't taken the step
> to
> > > investigate the
> > > > > claim against Cenel Maine.
> > > > > > Brynes’s
> > > > > > > > argument - that Cenel
> Maine has
> > > conflicting
> > > > > pedigree and that closeness
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > Ui Maine means that they
> are Ui
> > > Maine Fails.
> > > > > For Dobbs shows that "Cenel
> > > > > > > > Maine" originates in a
> seperate
> > > location
> > > > > distant from Ui Maine.
> > > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >  R1b1c7 Research
> and Links:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > > > > > >
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