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From: "Robert Reid" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 269
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:49:10 -0400
References: <mailman.315.1314054285.12614.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.315.1314054285.12614.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>


Review by Benjamin Hudson, History Dept., at Penn State Univ. of Lacey's
Cenel Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms 500 - 800:

"They are two main arguments in the book. The first is that the so-called Ui
Neill confederation was less an extended dynasty connected through a remote
ancestor named Niall of the Nine Hostages, whose descendants emigrated out
of Connacht, and more a "flag of convenience" for several unconnected royal
families who wished to make claims of antique supremacy throughout Ireland.
The second argument follows the first: the kingly families of Cenell Conaill
were not descended from Niall of the Nine Hostages and did not emigrate
north from Connacht but were indigenous to Donegal and expanded southwards.
Lacey argues that in the eighth century the supporters of the rival dynasty
of Cenel nEogain developed the idea of a "Northern Ui Neill" with ancient
lordship in the north of Ireland - an opportunity provided by Cenel
Conaill's military defeats.
These arguments require a close reading of the source material. Students of
early Irish history are accustomed to making a journey through the looking
glass when using texts whose material is occasionally fantasy based on
nuggets of genuine historical information. These texts were produced by
clerical supporters of particular dynasties who were willing to create
composite works in the interests of their patrons. An important source of
evidence for Lacey's argument is provided by a legend called "The Adventure
of Conaill Gulban" (Echtra Conaill Gulban), which purports to tell the story
of Cenell Coonaill to the seventh century. Lacey devotes a chapter to this
tale as he argues that even though the extant version is in a
seventeenth-century manuscript, it was based on a thirteenth-century text,
which followed an original that was composed in the seventh century and that
supports his thesis. A danger with this methodology is that of
hypercorrection in the interests of the author's particular views.
Similar arguments have been proposed before, most notably by John Kelleher,
who argued that an Ui Neill confederation composed of descendants of a king
named Niall of the Nine Hostages was a fabrication developed in the seventh
and eighth centuries in the interests of the Cenel nEogain and the midlands
principality of Clan Cholmain. The Irish annals, Kelleher asserted, were
then reworked in the interests of this new entity. At the time Kelleher's
arguments met ferocious opposition ....."

Cambridge Journals Online Abstract - Speculum 2008 Vol 83 Issue 2

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of

Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 7:05 PM
To:
Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 269



Today's Topics:

1. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 267 (Robert Reid)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 19:04:45 -0400
From: "Robert Reid" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 267
To: <>
Message-ID: <000101cc611f$e257b120$a7071360$@insight.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"

Review of Lacey's book CEN?L CONAILL AND THE DONEGAL KINGDOMS, AD 500 ? 800
by Tomas ),Canann.

Cen?l Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800

Brian Lacey
CEN?L CONAILL AND THE DONEGAL KINGDOMS, AD 500 ? 800.
Four Courts Press, Dublin, 2006. Pp 351. Price 45 Euro. ISBN
978-1-85182-978-1.

"Lacey expertly deconstructs this fable, as well. Based on detailed analysis
of maternal ancestries, place names, hagiography, archaeology, and saints?
genealogies, he concludes that Cen?l Conaill were more likely a Cruithin
people affiliated with the U? Echach Coba and, perhaps, the Conaille
Muirtheimme. His position is well-reasoned, but knotty problems occasioned
by vague and contradictory sources render his conclusion necessarily
speculative." Paragraph 3 Tom?s G. ? Canann.


Perched high atop a narrow isthmus, the Grian?n Ailig strategically guards
the great northern waterways of Lough Foyle and Lough Swilly. On a clear
day, it commands a panoramic view in all directions; in particular, the
southwestern prospect extends more than 35 miles, clean through the famed
Bernas M?r gap in the Blue Stack Mountains, to the cobalt waters of Donegal
Bay. This massive stone cashel may have been built shortly after the pivotal
battle of Cl?itech in 789, both to create a more impressive caput for Cen?l
nE?gain and to celebrate its decisive victory over archrival Cen?l Conaill
for supremacy of the territory known today as County Donegal. How the
emerging kingdom of Ailech came to be consolidated by the end of the eighth
century is the subject of an important new book by Dr Brian Lacey,
pioneering director of the Donegal Archaeological Survey, noted Columban
scholar, and distinguished historian of medieval Ulster. Why this story
matters in the larger ?national? picture is explained at the outset: the
first two, perhaps the first three, genuinely historical figures described
as ?king of Ireland? in early texts came from Cen?l Conaill in Donegal. That
same people gave birth to Colum Cille and Adomn?n, the most prominent Irish
clerics of the sixth and seventh centuries. Their monastery at Iona in the
Inner Hebrides, staffed mainly by monks from Donegal, quickly became a place
of enormous cultural influence. In fact, Lacey perceptively notes,
compilation of the Iona Chronicle seems to have initiated the practice of
recording annals, and thus the Donegal community in spiritual exile there
could justly be said to have invented the writing of Irish history.

The origin of early medieval Donegal, as it was understood for many
centuries, represented a carefully-built construct of two distinct phases in
Irish historiography. The earlier stratum began in the eighth century when
historians promoted the political supremacy of the U? N?ill (particularly
Cen?l nE?gain) in tandem with the ecclesiastical primacy of Armagh. Lacey
identifies the likely sponsors of this ambitious intellectual and propaganda
enterprise as ?ed All?n (d. 743), Cen?l nE?gain king of Tara, and Congus (d.
750), bishop of Armagh. Their burst of literary activity involved a ruthless
redaction (Lacey likens it to ?Stalinization?) of the early annals,
genealogies, and regnal lists that projected the political alignment of the
eighth-century back, conveniently beyond the time of memory, into the
largely undocumented fifth century. Contemporaneous with that editorial
process, scholars began designating a dozen peoples in the northwest, led
chiefly by Cen?l Conaill and Cen?l nE?gain, under a new rubric: U? N?ill in
Tuaiscirt. Lacey collectively labels their territory ?the Donegal kingdoms.?
Drawing on recent scholarship by Thomas Charles-Edwards, Ailbhe Mac
Shamhr?in, and others, he makes a compelling case for their biological
distinctiveness from those midland peoples traditionally regarded as nepotes
N?ill.

A second literary phase occurred in the thirteenth century as the newly
emergent ? Domhnaill dynasty sponsored its own aetiology of Cen?l Conaill.
That effort, incorporating earlier recensions, was codified in Eachtra
Conaill Gulban, a bloodthirsty saga recounting how Niall No?giallach?s sons
invaded Donegal from Connacht and conquered its indigenous inhabitants (D?l
Fiatach). Lacey expertly deconstructs this fable, as well. Based on detailed
analysis of maternal ancestries, placenames, hagiography, archaeology, and
saints? genealogies, he concludes that Cen?l Conaill were more likely a
Cruithin people affiliated with the U? Echach Coba and, perhaps, the
Conaille Muirtheimme. His position is well-reasoned, but knotty problems
occasioned by vague and contradictory sources render his conclusion
necessarily speculative. Following the seminal research of D?nall Mac Giolla
Easpaig, Niall ? D?naill, and others, Lacey also makes a strong case for the
separate biological identity of its constituent peoples who, according to
the medieval genealogies, encompassed a southern dynasty (Cen?l n?eda Esa
Ruaid), a western kindred (Cen?l mB?gaine), and a northern sept (Cen?l
Lugdach), among others.

In fact, though, a newly-published DNA analysis of modern surname-bearers
demonstrates that these Cen?l Conaill peoples share a distinctive haplotype
characteristic with each other and with Cen?l nE?gain [Laoise T. Moore et
al., ?A Y-Chromosome Signature of Hegemony in Gaelic Ireland,? American
Journal of Human Genetics 78 (2006) 334-38]. Saliva swabs taken from bearers
of surnames originating in Cen?l n?eda Esa Ruaid (Cannon, Gallagher), Cen?l
Lugdach (Boyle, Doherty, McMenamin, O?Donnell), and Cen?l nE?gain (Devlin,
Donnelly, Gormley, McLoughlin, O?Kane, Quinn) reveal a common genetic marker
from a single ancestor who lived about 1,730 years ago in the Irish
northwest. Lacey persuasively eliminates Niall No?giallach as that
progenitor, but other (fictional?) candidates remain: Cana mac Luigdech
L?mfhata, D?l Fiatach leader of Sentuatha Ulaid (ECG); Echu Doiml?n, father
of the Three Collas (T.F. O?Rahilly, D?ibh? ? Cr?in?n); or perhaps Lacey?s
own anonymous Cruithin prince. All we know for certain is that
proto-historic Donegal was contested as ferann claidib, ?sword-land,?
tellingly symbolised here by the Ballyshannon sword hilt (Early Iron Age)
that graces the frontispiece.

Brian Lacey?s pathbreaking study represents the mature fruit of three
decades of fieldwork and publication. He provides a fascinating synthesis of
scholarship new and old (the bibliography alone contains 240 items),
supported by a vast array of landscape photographs, references, maps,
drawings, and genealogical tables designed to ease the way for readers. His
book is densely packed with fresh insights, e.g. suggesting Mag n?tha as the
original homeland of Cen?l Conaill, locating Adomn?n?s birthplace in Cen?l
n?nnai, positing Druim Tuama and Derry as boundary churches of early Cen?l
Conaill, identifying Ircoir battlesite (AFM 787) as the townland of Raforker
(R?ith Ircoir?), delineating the Ballintra wetlands as the boundary between
Mag Latrain and Mag Sereth, and proposing Tory Island as initially a Cen?l
nE?gain foundation. Cen?l Conaill and the Donegal Kingdoms forges a
brilliant new template for our evolving understanding of Irish antiquity. It
is destined to take its place as the leading reinterpretation of the
powerful U? N?ill federation and its hold on the prized kingship of Tara.

Tom?s G. ? Canann

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of

Sent: Monday, August 22, 2011 5:15 PM
To:
Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 267



Today's Topics:

1. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe (Jerry Kelly)
2. Re: MacLysaght and Woulfe (Bob Quinn)
3. Re: Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD 500-800
(Paul Conroy)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:42:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jerry Kelly <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
To:
Message-ID:
<>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Bob a chara,

MacLysaght is still under copyright buy Sloinnte Gaedheal Is Gall (Surnames
of the Gaeil and Gaill) by an t-Athair P?draig de Bhulbh (Fr. Patrick
Woulfe) is available at:

http://www.libraryireland.com/names/contents.php

An excellent book, sometimes corrected by MacLysaght, but excellent
nevertheless.

Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
Jerry

Treibheanna ?ireannacha
www.irishtribes.com


--- On Mon, 8/22/11, Bob Quinn <> wrote:

> From: Bob Quinn <>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> To:
> Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 12:38 PM
>
> Thank you, Gerry. Is there any way to get McLysacht's read on names
> other than to buy the book? I had no? luck on the Internet. Regards,
> Bob
>
> Bob Quinn
> President&CEO
> Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
>
> Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
> Manufacturer's Roundtable
> 27 Langton Lane
> Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> T:610-331-4920
> e-mail:
> Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 09:17:21 -0700
> > From:
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222]??? Cen?l Maine -
> truly U? N?ill?
> >
> > Bob a chara,
> >
> > Someone may have answered this already but Quinn is
> short for X Cuinn / X of Conn.? Cuinn is the genitive of Conn, a
> grammatical way to say 'of Conn'.? Mac Cuinn would be Son of Conn.? ?
> Cuinn would be Grandson of Conn.? But the 'of' part is in Cuinn, not
> in Mac or ?.?
> >
> > Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
> > Jerry
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 8/21/11, Bob Quinn <>
> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Bob Quinn <>
> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U?
> N?ill?
> > > To:
> > > Date: Sunday, August 21, 2011, 2:23 PM
> > >
> > > Would like to know his opinion. Everyone else
> thinks it is
> > > Son of Conn.
> > >
> > > Bob Quinn
> > > President&CEO
> > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> > >
> > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street
> Partners
> > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable
> > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > T:610-331-4920
> > > e-mail:
> > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > >???
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >? > From:
> > > > To:
> > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100
> > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly
> U?
> > > N?ill?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks Bob
> > > >
> > > > Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht
> gives for
> > > the derivation of the
> > > > surname Quinn?
> > > >
> > > > Sandy
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From:
> > > > [mailto:]
> > > On Behalf Of Bob Quinn
> > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29
> > > > To:
> > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly
> U?
> > > N?ill?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442.
> > > >
> > > > Bob Quinn
> > > > President&CEO
> > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> > > >
> > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street
> Partners
> > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable
> > > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > > T:610-331-4920
> > > > e-mail:
> > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > > >???
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >? > From:
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400
> > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine -
> truly U?
> > > N?ill?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I'm interested in any resource for
> Haplotypes of
> > > the early Celts, so I'll
> > > > be watching for feedback. I am included in
> R-M222 and
> > > my Quinns/Murphys are
> > > > from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a
> higher
> > > Scandinavain component
> > > > for me than for most Irish. Does this mean
> anything to
> > > anybody?
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob Quinn
> > > > > President&CEO
> > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> > > > >
> > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay
> Street
> > > Partners
> > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's
> Roundtable
> > > > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > > > T:610-331-4920
> > > > > e-mail:
> > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > > > >???
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >? > From:
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52
> +0100
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine
> - truly
> > > U? N?ill?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bernard
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a
> candidate
> > > for the origins of
> > > > McHarg/Mac
> > > > > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you
> point me to
> > > his haplotype?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I've found an interesting match
> between
> > > Ewing and a Quinn, with matches
> > > > at
> > > > > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't
> think the
> > > Quinn is from O'Quin
> > > > though. I
> > > > > > think he's from Mackquein, which
> may be from
> > > McEwen of Ottir.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sandy
> > > > > >
> > > > > >???
> > > > > >
> > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > From:
> > > > > > [mailto:]
> > > On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan
> > > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04
> > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine
> - truly
> > > U? N?ill?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jerry,
> > > > > >?
> > > > > > Of course I have a vested interest
> in
> > > understanding Cenel Maine, however
> > > > I
> > > > > > hadn't taken the step to
> investigate the
> > > claim against Cenel Maine.
> > > > Brynes?s
> > > > > > argument - that Cenel Maine has
> conflicting
> > > pedigree and that closeness
> > > > to
> > > > > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui
> Maine Fails.
> > > For Dobbs shows that "Cenel
> > > > > > Maine" originates in a seperate
> location
> > > distant from Ui Maine.
> > > > > >?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >? R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the
> > > > > > list,
> please send an
> > > email to
> > > >
> > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the
> message
> > > > >? ???
> > >? ? ? ???
> > >? ? ? ? ???
> > >???
> > > > >? R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list,
> > > > > please
> send an
> > > email to
> > > >
> > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the
> message
> > > >? ???
> > >? ? ? ???
> > >? ? ? ? ???
> > >???
> > > >? R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > >
> > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > > -------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an
> email to
> > > >
> > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the
> message
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >? R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > >
> > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > > -------------------------------
> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an
> email to
> > >
> > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
> the
> > > subject and the body of the message ? ???
> > >? ? ? ???
> > >? ? ? ? ???
> > >???
> > >? R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > >
> > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > -------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an
> email to
> > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in
> the
> > > subject and the body of the message
> > >
> >
> >? R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >
> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the
> body of the message ???
> ????????
> ?????? ???
> ?
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 16:17:09 -0400
From: Bob Quinn <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"


Thanks very much, Jerry. Regards, Bob

Bob Quinn
President&CEO
Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants

Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
Manufacturer's Roundtable
27 Langton Lane
Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
T:610-331-4920
e-mail:
Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals










> Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:42:38 -0700
> From:
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] MacLysaght and Woulfe
>
> Bob a chara,
>
> MacLysaght is still under copyright buy Sloinnte Gaedheal Is Gall
(Surnames of the Gaeil and Gaill) by an t-Athair P?draig de Bhulbh (Fr.
Patrick Woulfe) is available at:
>
> http://www.libraryireland.com/names/contents.php
>
> An excellent book, sometimes corrected by MacLysaght, but excellent
nevertheless.
>
> Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
> Jerry
>
> Treibheanna ?ireannacha
> www.irishtribes.com
>
>
> --- On Mon, 8/22/11, Bob Quinn <> wrote:
>
> > From: Bob Quinn <>
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> > To:
> > Date: Monday, August 22, 2011, 12:38 PM
> >
> > Thank you, Gerry. Is there any way to get McLysacht's read on names
> > other than to buy the book? I had no luck on the Internet. Regards,
> > Bob
> >
> > Bob Quinn
> > President&CEO
> > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> >
> > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
> > Manufacturer's Roundtable
> > 27 Langton Lane
> > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > T:610-331-4920
> > e-mail:
> > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 09:17:21 -0700
> > > From:
> > > To:
> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine -
> > truly U? N?ill?
> > >
> > > Bob a chara,
> > >
> > > Someone may have answered this already but Quinn is
> > short for X Cuinn / X of Conn. Cuinn is the genitive of Conn, a
> > grammatical way to say 'of Conn'. Mac Cuinn would be Son of Conn.
> > ? Cuinn would be Grandson of Conn. But the 'of' part is in Cuinn,
> > not in Mac or ?.
> > >
> > > Le gach dea-ghu? / Best,
> > > Jerry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 8/21/11, Bob Quinn <>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Bob Quinn <>
> > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U?
> > N?ill?
> > > > To:
> > > > Date: Sunday, August 21, 2011, 2:23 PM
> > > >
> > > > Would like to know his opinion. Everyone else
> > thinks it is
> > > > Son of Conn.
> > > >
> > > > Bob Quinn
> > > > President&CEO
> > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> > > >
> > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street
> > Partners
> > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable
> > > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > > T:610-331-4920
> > > > e-mail:
> > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > From:
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100
> > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly
> > U?
> > > > N?ill?
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks Bob
> > > > >
> > > > > Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht
> > gives for
> > > > the derivation of the
> > > > > surname Quinn?
> > > > >
> > > > > Sandy
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From:
> > > > > [mailto:]
> > > > On Behalf Of Bob Quinn
> > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29
> > > > > To:
> > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly
> > U?
> > > > N?ill?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442.
> > > > >
> > > > > Bob Quinn
> > > > > President&CEO
> > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> > > > >
> > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street
> > Partners
> > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's Roundtable
> > > > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > > > T:610-331-4920
> > > > > e-mail:
> > > > > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > From:
> > > > > > To:
> > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine -
> > truly U?
> > > > N?ill?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm interested in any resource for
> > Haplotypes of
> > > > the early Celts, so I'll
> > > > > be watching for feedback. I am included in
> > R-M222 and
> > > > my Quinns/Murphys are
> > > > > from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a
> > higher
> > > > Scandinavain component
> > > > > for me than for most Irish. Does this mean
> > anything to
> > > > anybody?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Bob Quinn
> > > > > > President&CEO
> > > > > > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay
> > Street
> > > > Partners
> > > > > > Co-Chair ACS GCI Manufacturer's
> > Roundtable
> > > > > > 27 Langton Lane
> > > > > > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > > > > > T:610-331-4920
> > > > > > e-mail:
> > > > > > Profile:
> > > > > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From:
> > > > > > > To:
> > > > > > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52
> > +0100
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine
> > - truly
> > > > U? N?ill?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Bernard
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a
> > candidate
> > > > for the origins of
> > > > > McHarg/Mac
> > > > > > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you
> > point me to
> > > > his haplotype?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I've found an interesting match
> > between
> > > > Ewing and a Quinn, with matches
> > > > > at
> > > > > > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't
> > think the
> > > > Quinn is from O'Quin
> > > > > though. I
> > > > > > > think he's from Mackquein, which
> > may be from
> > > > McEwen of Ottir.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Sandy
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From:
> > > > > > > [mailto:]
> > > > On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan
> > > > > > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04
> > > > > > > To: dna-r1b1c7
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine
> > - truly
> > > > U? N?ill?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jerry,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Of course I have a vested interest
> > in
> > > > understanding Cenel Maine, however
> > > > > I
> > > > > > > hadn't taken the step to
> > investigate the
> > > > claim against Cenel Maine.
> > > > > Brynes?s
> > > > > > > argument - that Cenel Maine has
> > conflicting
> > > > pedigree and that closeness
> > > > > to
> > > > > > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui
> > Maine Fails.
> > > > For Dobbs shows that "Cenel
> > > > > > > Maine" originates in a seperate
> > location
> > > > distant from Ui Maine.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the
> > > > > > > list,
> > please send an
> > > > email to
> > > > >
> > > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the
> > message
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the
> > > > > > list, please
> > send an
> > > > email to
> > > > >
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> > message
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list,
> > > > > please send an
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > > >
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> > > > > please send an
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > > >
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> > >
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> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and
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> >
> >
> >
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> >
> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
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------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:14:38 -0400
From: Paul Conroy <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cenel Conaill And the Donegal Kingdoms, AD
500-800
To:
Message-ID:
<CA+2t2c5RZG=>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252

John,

BTW, I just noticed something in your link to Connachta Clans:
http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/connachta.htm

It lists:
*McConroi = King*

This Gaelic name is also translated as "*Conroy*" of course, as well as
Conry, Connery and so on. Did you compile this list yourself or got it from
some other source?

More here:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Conroy/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

Cheers,
Paul

On Mon, Aug 22, 2011 at 3:17 PM, Bernard Morgan
<>wrote:

>
> > Here are a few quotes from Lacey's book. He believes the northern Ui
> > Neill (Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Enda) did not move
> > north
> into
> > Donegal as stated by all Irish historians but were Cruithin,
>
> One way to answer to the question is whether they share the same mutation.
>
> In ysearch.org sometime back I found Conlon NM4WF from Belfield, Co.
> Westmeath who is M222+. Belfield is near Gaybrook and is within the
> former lands of Clann Enna mac Laoghaire. The O'Conlon (O Caindelbain)
> are the senior branch of Clann Enda mac Laogaire and of Cenel Laogaire
> in Midi. So is Cenel Laogaire of the Southern Ui Neill M222+?
>
>
> > From a DNA standpoint, I'm not sure we can yet say the northern and
> > southern Ui Neill were related by blood in descent from Niall. Most
> > of
> the DNA
> > we possess is either Connachta or northern Ui Neill in origin. Or
> > just
> plain
> > of unknown origin. There is some in the south, O'Mulloys and
> > Geoghegans, I think the Trinity study largely skipped over southern
> > Ui Neill
> surnames.
> > In the following list I only see a few that might be southern Ui Neill.
> >
> > (O?)Gallagher (12),
> > (O?)Boyle (9), (O?)Doherty (5), O?Donnell (4), O?Connor (3), Cannon
> > (3), Bradley (2), O?Reilly (2), Flynn (2), (Mc)Kee (2), Campbell
> > (1), Devlin (1), Donnelly (1), Egan (1), Gormley (1), Hynes (1),
> > McCaul (1), McGovern (1), McLoughlin (1), McManus (1), McMenamin
> > (1), Molloy (1), O?Kane (1), O?Rourke (1), and Quinn (1).
> >
> > Molloy might be one. McLoughlin another if the O Mailsechlainns of
> > Meath were targeted. But that also could be MacLochlainn of Donegal.
>
> The Trinity report did not investigate the existance of M222+ amongst
> the Southern Ui Neill?
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>


------------------------------



End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 267
******************************************




------------------------------



End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 269
******************************************


This thread: