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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-08 > 1313955280


From: "Robert Reid" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 263
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:34:41 -0400
References: <mailman.200.1313950990.7991.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.200.1313950990.7991.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>


Rough crowd! Per Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland Vol
124 (2004) pp 169-172; per Brian Lacey, "The Amrae Coluimb Cille has been
generally thought to have been composed close to the time of death of its
subject, which probably occurred in AD 593. We have been reminded, however,
that this is a complex text which, lacking an adequate modern edition, has
yet to be definitely dated as early as c. 600."

Biography

Brian Lacey was born in Dublin in 1949. He did various jobs in Ireland,
Belgium, France and Greece for four years after finishing secondary
education. He then studied Celtic Archaeology and Early including Medieval
Irish History at University College Dublin (BA 1st class Hons, 1974; also
awarded the Eugene O’Curry memorial medal for Early Irish History), and
obtained a D. Phil. from the University of Ulster in 1999 for
interdisciplinary work relating to the heritage of St Colum Cille. From 1974
to 1986 he was a lecturer in Local Studies (archaeology and history) at
Magee University College in Derry, and from 1986 until 1998 was Programme
Organiser of Derry City Council’s Heritage and Museum Service. During that
time he set up, among other things, four award-winning museums and a
municipal archive service.
Publications
Books:

(with others) Archaeological Survey of Donegal (1983, editor and principal
author)
Siege City – the Story of Derry and Londonderry (1990, reprinted 1995 and
1998)
Colum Cille and the Columban Tradition (1997)
Manus O’Donnell – The Life of Colum Cille (1998)
Discover Derry (1999)
A Pocket History of Irish Saints (2003)
Cenél Conaill and the Donegal kingdoms: AD 500-800 (2006)


-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 2:23 PM
To:
Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 263



Today's Topics:

1. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 (Iain Kennedy)
2. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bob Quinn)
3. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bernard Morgan)
4. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bernard Morgan)
5. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson)
6. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Bob Quinn)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:13:24 +0000
From: Iain Kennedy <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Thanks for bringing this to our attention. However we need to distinguish
between dates of manuscripts and estimates of dates when their original
sources might have been written. There is no 597 AD manuscript such as you
are implying, it exists in transcription from the 11th century. I apologise
if people on this list don't think this distinction matters. Is it a totally
accurate transcription without embellishments or errors??

> This is one of the earliest sources (not written 8th-10th centuries)
> of Colum Cille's genealogy at such an early date. Most experts don't
> know what to do with it but think its likely around 600 AD before
> Aed's death if he so commissioned it.

Iain



----------------------------------------
> From:
> To:
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:15:46 -0400
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260
>
> Please let me state, I am no expert on this but was probably written
> before
> 596 since that was the date Aed died, King of Cenel Conaill. Aed that
> commissioned the work, Amrae Coluim Cille, being his relative. You
> wanted reference to Conall Gulban being the son of Niall. We all know
> it can't be Conal Cremthanne as he is of the Southern Ui Neill. As we
> know, Colum Cille died ~ 593 AD. Aed was the great-grandson of Fergus
> and Colum Cille was the grandson of Fergus. As the poem relates,
> Fergus was the son of Conall, son of Neill. This can be googled at
> http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/amra_columcille.htmlhttp://www.maryjone
> s.us/c
> texts/amra_columcille.html
>
>
> Amra Of St Columba
>
> PREFACE TO THE AMRA OF ST. COLUMBA.
>
> The place for the Amra usque in finein, i.e. the bit of land that is
> between Fene in UI Tigernan in Meath up to Dun na n-Airbed in the
> district of Masraige eastward of Irarus, or of Chechtraige Slecht from
> Breifne of Connaught; i.e. for Dallan.
>
> [For] Colum Cille son of Feidlimid, son of Fergus, son of Conall, son
> of Neill, Dallan wrote this. Now this is the third cause for which
> Colum Cille came, viz. a refusal that Ireland's kings around Aed mac
> Ainmerech put on Ireland's poets; for it was owing to the multitude of
> the poets and to their burdensomeness that Ireland's men were not able
> to find out what to do with them; for the person who was satirised
> there, if he did not immediately die, there used to grow poisonous
> ulcers upon him, till he was conspicuous to everybody, and till there
> was deformity upon him always; but upon the poet himself grew the
> ulcers, and he used to die immediately, if it was without fault that
> he satirised. Now the poets were at Ibar of Cinntracht in the
> territory of Ulster, for Ulster's king gave them 'coigny' three years,
> or (may be) one whole year there. And it was then they set themselves
> to invent stories, but they were wholly unable (to do it) as they used
> to tell them; but to impose them on the wholly rude race among whom
> they were, ready-tongued poets concocted the lying fables. Well, a
> message came from Ireland's poets to Colum Cille, to the effect that
> it was to them he should come before he went to Druim Cetta, the place
> where the kings were who refused them. And so they invoked God's name
> upon the head of Colum Cille and of the Christian faith ... was
> brought under his protection to Druim Cetta. There came afterwards Colum
Cille as he came from his boat, seven twenties his number (of followers), ut
poeta dixit:
>
> Forty priests his number,
> twenty bishops lofty power
> at the psalm-singing without dispute,
> fifty deacons, thirty students.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
>
> Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:00 AM
> To:
> Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260
>
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Another theory on Connachta origins (Yair Davidiy)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:22 +0200
> From: Yair Davidiy <>
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Another theory on Connachta origins
> To:
> Message-ID: <>
> Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
> At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote:
>
>
> >
> >
> >In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> > writes:
> >
> >I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among
> >the Belgae tribes of the Rhine...
>
>
> M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west.
>
> Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to
> Europe.
> Others are probably local.
>
> Has anybody done any work on this??
>
> Do the family names say anything?
>
> Are there local concentrations??
>
> Yair Davidiy
> Jerusalem
> Israel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260
> ******************************************
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:29:11 -0400
From: Bob Quinn <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"


I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442.

Bob Quinn
President&CEO
Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants

Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
Manufacturer's Roundtable
27 Langton Lane
Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
T:610-331-4920
e-mail:
Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals










> From:
> To:
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
>
>
> I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so I'll
be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are
from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component
for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody?
>
> Bob Quinn
> President&CEO
> Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
>
> Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
> Manufacturer's Roundtable
> 27 Langton Lane
> Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> T:610-331-4920
> e-mail:
> Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From:
> > To:
> > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> >
> > Bernard
> >
> > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of
> > McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype?
> >
> > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with
> > matches at DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is
> > from O'Quin though. I think he's from Mackquein, which may be from
McEwen of Ottir.
> >
> >
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan
> > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04
> > To: dna-r1b1c7
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> >
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine,
> > however I hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against
> > Cenel Maine. Brynes?s argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting
> > pedigree and that closeness to Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine
> > Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate
location distant from Ui Maine.
> >
> >
> >
> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >
> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message


------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 15:42:10 +0000
From: Bernard Morgan <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: dna-r1b1c7 <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"



Thank John, I can now push the existence of Cenel Maine back to the 10/11th
century.

> Bernard, I just checked the Tripartite Life of Patrick (Whitley Stokes
> edition). In his introduction he states the material was written in
> the middle 10th century or more probably the 11th century. I'm not
> sure how great a source this is.


------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 16:14:20 +0000
From: Bernard Morgan <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: dna-r1b1c7 <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


> Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of
> McHarg/Mac Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype?

I think it is unlikely.

MagCargamni are typical anglized: MacCaron or Gaffney


------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100
From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: <>
Message-ID: <002101cc602b$0a1ec270$1e5c4750$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"

Thanks Bob

Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for the derivation of the
surname Quinn?

Sandy



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn
Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?


I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442.

Bob Quinn
President&CEO
Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants

Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
Manufacturer's Roundtable
27 Langton Lane
Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
T:610-331-4920
e-mail:
Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals










> From:
> To:
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
>
>
> I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so
> I'll
be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my Quinns/Murphys are
from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher Scandinavain component
for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything to anybody?
>
> Bob Quinn
> President&CEO
> Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
>
> Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
> Manufacturer's Roundtable
> 27 Langton Lane
> Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> T:610-331-4920
> e-mail:
> Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From:
> > To:
> > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> >
> > Bernard
> >
> > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of
McHarg/Mac
> > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype?
> >
> > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with
> > matches
at
> > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin
though. I
> > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir.
> >
> >
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan
> > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04
> > To: dna-r1b1c7
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> >
> >
> > Jerry,
> >
> > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine,
> > however
I
> > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine.
Brynes?s
> > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that
> > closeness
to
> > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that
> > "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine.
> >
> >
> >
> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >
> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

R1b1c7 Research and Links:

http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 14:23:06 -0400
From: Bob Quinn <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"


Would like to know his opinion. Everyone else thinks it is Son of Conn.

Bob Quinn
President&CEO
Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants

Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
Manufacturer's Roundtable
27 Langton Lane
Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
T:610-331-4920
e-mail:
Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals










> From:
> To:
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 18:52:05 +0100
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
>
> Thanks Bob
>
> Do you or anyone else know what McLysacht gives for the derivation of
> the surname Quinn?
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Bob Quinn
> Sent: 21 August 2011 16:29
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
>
>
> I have 15, 12,12, on DYS 19,439,442.
>
> Bob Quinn
> President&CEO
> Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
>
> Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
> Manufacturer's Roundtable
> 27 Langton Lane
> Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> T:610-331-4920
> e-mail:
> Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > From:
> > To:
> > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:06:30 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> >
> >
> > I'm interested in any resource for Haplotypes of the early Celts, so
> > I'll
> be watching for feedback. I am included in R-M222 and my
> Quinns/Murphys are from Armagh. The Davidski studies indicate a higher
> Scandinavain component for me than for most Irish. Does this mean anything
to anybody?
> >
> > Bob Quinn
> > President&CEO
> > Quinn Specialty Chemical Consultants
> >
> > Partner at Bay Street Investors/Bay Street Partners Co-Chair ACS GCI
> > Manufacturer's Roundtable
> > 27 Langton Lane
> > Newtown Square, Pa, 19073
> > T:610-331-4920
> > e-mail:
> > Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/bobquinnspecialtychemicals
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > From:
> > > To:
> > > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100
> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> > >
> > > Bernard
> > >
> > > Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of
> McHarg/Mac
> > > Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype?
> > >
> > > I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with
> > > matches
> at
> > > DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin
> though. I
> > > think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir.
> > >
> > >
> > > Sandy
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From:
> > > [mailto:] On Behalf Of Bernard
> > > Morgan
> > > Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04
> > > To: dna-r1b1c7
> > > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> > >
> > >
> > > Jerry,
> > >
> > > Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine,
> > > however
> I
> > > hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine.
> Brynes?s
> > > argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that
> > > closeness
> to
> > > Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that
> > > "Cenel Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> > >
> > > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > > -------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
> >
> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >
> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message


------------------------------



End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 263
******************************************



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