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From: "Robert Reid" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 261
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:22:58 -0400
References: <mailman.76.1313932544.7991.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>
In-Reply-To: <mailman.76.1313932544.7991.dna-r1b1c7@rootsweb.com>


FYI

Dallán Forgaill (also Dallán Forchella; Dallán of Cluain Dalláin, fl. AD
597) was an early Christian Irish poet best known as the writer of the Amra
Choluim Chille ("Eulogy of Colm Cille"). He was the Chief Ollam of Ireland
.The early Irish poem Rop tú mo baile, the basis of the modern English hymn
Be Thou My Vision, is sometimes attributed to him.

According to the Life of St. Dallán in the Acta Sanctorum Hiberniae, he was
the son of Colla, son of Erc, a descendant of the legendary High King Colla
Uais. His mother was called Forchella, and his given name was Eochaid. His
first cousin was St.Mogue and his fourth cousin was Saint Tigernach of
Clones. The Acta and the preface to the Amra Choluim Chille agree he was
born in Maigen (now Ballyconnell), the eastern edge of the territory of the
Masraige of Magh Slécht in modern County Cavan. He was not a member of the
Masraige but belonged to a branch of the Airgíalla called the Fir Lurg who
were in the process of spreading southwards into Fermanagh and Cavan. The
barony of Lurg in County Fermanagh was named after them.[1]

The Liber Sanctorum says he studied so intensively he lost his sight,
earning the nickname Dallán ("little blind one").[2] The preface to the Amra
also says he was chief poet (ollamh) of Ireland as well as a scholar of
Latin scriptural learning.[1][3] Geoffrey Keating's History of Ireland
states that Dallan helped to reform the Bardic Order at the Convention of
Drumceat.

He is best known for eulogies attributed to him, on the subject of
contemporaneous Irish saints, namely the Amra Choluim Chille on St. Columba,
Amra Senain on St. Senan, and Amra Connaill for St. Connall. The poems,
rarely translated, were of such obscure language that subsequent scribes
included copious glosses on the poems. The best example is the Amra Choluim
Chille, wherein the glosses contain poems in themselves, some of which deal
with the Fenian Cycle.[citation needed] He is said to have written the Amra
Choluim Chille shortly after the death of Colm Cille in 597, because Colm
Cille had successfully saved the poets from expulsion from Ireland at the
assembly of Druim Cett in 575.

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 9:16 AM
To:
Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 261



Today's Topics:

1. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson)
2. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Iain Kennedy)
3. Why is it wrong to assume a haplogroup originated where it is
most frequent now? (Iain Kennedy)
4. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Sandy Paterson)
5. Re: Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill? (Iain Kennedy)
6. Re: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260 (Robert Reid)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:48:52 +0100
From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: <>
Message-ID: <000701cc5fdf$273014f0$75903ed0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"

Bernard

Do you think the MagCargamni is a candidate for the origins of McHarg/Mac
Giolla Chairge? Also, can you point me to his haplotype?

I've found an interesting match between Ewing and a Quinn, with matches at
DYS 19,439,442 = 15,13,11. I don't think the Quinn is from O'Quin though. I
think he's from Mackquein, which may be from McEwen of Ottir.


Sandy



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Bernard Morgan
Sent: 21 August 2011 07:04
To: dna-r1b1c7
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?


Jerry,

Of course I have a vested interest in understanding Cenel Maine, however I
hadn't taken the step to investigate the claim against Cenel Maine. Brynes?s
argument - that Cenel Maine has conflicting pedigree and that closeness to
Ui Maine means that they are Ui Maine Fails. For Dobbs shows that "Cenel
Maine" originates in a seperate location distant from Ui Maine.





------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:04:46 +0000
From: Iain Kennedy <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all
the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly
before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using
Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources'
and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the
New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely
religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is
Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an
MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part:
'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a
surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic
king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid,
succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill
overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill...?it is
the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the
battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and
contraction of Ulster.'
I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even
sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived?

Iain





----------------------------------------
> From:
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
>
>
> Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere
> which mentions Niall or his sons?
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 11:36:36 +0000
From: Iain Kennedy <>
Subject: [R-M222] Why is it wrong to assume a haplogroup originated
where it is most frequent now?
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Last night I was reading the DNA articles and discussions on the eupedia
site. One interesting post was this one where it was argued that not only
should we not use modern distribution to determine the origin of a
haplogroup (commonly accepted, see origins of R1b) but neither should we use
STR diversity, which I have argued for before on this list.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25644-Why-it-is-wrong-to-assume-
that-a-haplogroup-originated-where-it-is-most-frequent-now

I don't know who the poster is or whether he has any relevant
qualifications. He gives the age of M222 as 3000ybp but doesn't cite a
reference or any data to back this up.

Some of the maps and tables are excellent although they are high level
compared with M222. I was however interested to see that it makes Wales to
have a higher R1b concentration than either Ireland or Scotland, albeit
based on rather thin data.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Main portal page is

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/


Iain





------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:41:10 +0100
From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: <>
Message-ID: <000001cc5ff7$398107a0$ac8316e0$@com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="iso-8859-1"

Iain

Do you know much about Slaine of Brega?

Perhaps a wild guess, but how about

Donnshleibhe/Slaine/Slavens?

Adamnan also interests me. The Cain of Adomnain was also known as the Law of
Adomnan (Oxford DNB). Could some Cains or variants have derived their
surname from the Cain of Adomnain? Could the Lag in Lagman come from the
same source? DYS446=15 is present in Lamont, Cain variants and Slavens. The
M222 modal value is 13. Speculative, I know, but if the DNA ties in with the
onomastics, there may be something in it.

Sandy



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy
Sent: 21 August 2011 11:05
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?


I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify all
the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them, particularly
before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c. 1090). I'm using
Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland: Introduction to the sources'
and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of the
New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is purely
religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the Ui Neill is
Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site and exists in an
MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part:
'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a
surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal Riadic
king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of whom Eochaid,
succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son Domnanll, both Ui Neill
overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also overlord of the Ui Neill...?it is
the Life, not the annals, which tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the
battle of Mag Rath, a major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and
contraction of Ulster.'
I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not even
sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself lived?

Iain





----------------------------------------
> From:
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
>
>
> Does anyone know if there is a really early source available somewhere
> which mentions Niall or his sons?
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message

R1b1c7 Research and Links:

http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message




------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:08:29 +0000
From: Iain Kennedy <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
To: <>
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Sandy,
I wouldn't want to comment from a linguistic point of view. Aed Slaine is
mentioned in several places by Hughes whose interest was in locating where
various sources were written and what political motives lay behind their
entries.?
'the early annals were interested in the Ui Neill overlords, but they were
especially interested in the descendants of Aed Slaine. They were part of
the southern Ui Neill, some of them were among the overlords, but some were
minor kings of Brega, the area which is now Co. Louth and the east of
Meath'.
The other place he is discussed is in the section on Muirchu's Life of St
Patrick which survives in a transcription in the Book of Armagh but was
actually written a century earlier, c. 700-ish. This source doesn't seem to
have such a good reputation for accuracy as Adomnan (and strictly speaking
isn't an original anyway).
'One, at least, of Muirchu's aims was to attach Armagh to the Ui Neill, who
were now clearly in the ascendant... the future of Armagh had to lie with
the Ui Neill, as Muirchu's Life recognised. The Ui Neill overlords between
658 and 695 were all Brega kings, descendants of Aed Slaine, and it is
interesting that the annals are concerned with that area, where Armagh later
had her own steward. The written sources for the Ui Neill annal entries may
go back to this period in the later seventh century when Armagh was
accumulating material to support her own claims and was anxious to link
herself with Ui Neill power'.
Iain





----------------------------------------
> From:
> To:
> Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 12:41:10 +0100
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
>
> Iain
>
> Do you know much about Slaine of Brega?
>
> Perhaps a wild guess, but how about
>
> Donnshleibhe/Slaine/Slavens?
>
> Adamnan also interests me. The Cain of Adomnain was also known as the
> Law of Adomnan (Oxford DNB). Could some Cains or variants have derived
> their surname from the Cain of Adomnain? Could the Lag in Lagman come
> from the same source? DYS446=15 is present in Lamont, Cain variants
> and Slavens. The
> M222 modal value is 13. Speculative, I know, but if the DNA ties in
> with the onomastics, there may be something in it.
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy
> Sent: 21 August 2011 11:05
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
>
>
> I've been going through all the early Irish sources trying to identify
> all the ones that are likely to have onomastic information in them,
> particularly before the earliest surviving annals (Inisfallen c.
> 1090). I'm using Kathleen Hughes' book 'Early Christian Ireland:
Introduction to the sources'
> and the chapters on Manuscripts and the Irish language in volume 1 of
> the New History of Ireland. Most of the early surviving material is
> purely religious in nature but possibly the first that discusses the
> Ui Neill is Adamnan's Vita Columbae which can be read on the UCC site
> and exists in an MS from around 713 AD. This is what Hughes says in part:
> 'amidst the prophesies, miracles and visions Adamnan does convey a
> surprising amount of information. .. we hear from Adamnan of the Dal
> Riadic king Conall, his cousin king Aedan and of Aedan's sons, one of
> whom Eochaid, succeeded; of the Cenel Conaill king Aed and his son
> Domnanll, both Ui Neill overlords; of Aed Slaine of Brega, also
> overlord of the Ui Neill... it is the Life, not the annals, which
> tells us that the Dal Riadans fought in the battle of Mag Rath, a
> major landmark in the spread of the Ui Neill power and contraction of
Ulster.'
> I don't think any earlier MS have anything useful to us and I'm not
> even sure any MS physically survives from the time that Niall himself
lived?
>
> Iain
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > From:
> > Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 01:54:31 -0400
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Cen?l Maine - truly U? N?ill?
> >
> >
> > Does anyone know if there is a really early source available
> > somewhere which mentions Niall or his sons?
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >
> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> > -------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
> -------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
> with the word 'unsubscribe' without
> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message



------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:15:46 -0400
From: "Robert Reid" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260
To: <>
Message-ID: <000001cc6004$7081eb40$5185c1c0$@insight.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset="us-ascii"

Please let me state, I am no expert on this but was probably written before
596 since that was the date Aed died, King of Cenel Conaill. Aed that
commissioned the work, Amrae Coluim Cille, being his relative. You wanted
reference to Conall Gulban being the son of Niall. We all know it can't be
Conal Cremthanne as he is of the Southern Ui Neill. As we know, Colum Cille
died ~ 593 AD. Aed was the great-grandson of Fergus and Colum Cille was the
grandson of Fergus. As the poem relates, Fergus was the son of Conall, son
of Neill. This can be googled at
http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/amra_columcille.htmlhttp://www.maryjones.us/c
texts/amra_columcille.html

This is one of the earliest sources (not written 8th-10th centuries) of
Colum Cille's genealogy at such an early date. Most experts don't know what
to do with it but think its likely around 600 AD before Aed's death if he so
commissioned it.

Amra Of St Columba

PREFACE TO THE AMRA OF ST. COLUMBA.

The place for the Amra usque in finein, i.e. the bit of land that is between
Fene in UI Tigernan in Meath up to Dun na n-Airbed in the district of
Masraige eastward of Irarus, or of Chechtraige Slecht from Breifne of
Connaught; i.e. for Dallan.

[For] Colum Cille son of Feidlimid, son of Fergus, son of Conall, son of
Neill, Dallan wrote this. Now this is the third cause for which Colum Cille
came, viz. a refusal that Ireland's kings around Aed mac Ainmerech put on
Ireland's poets; for it was owing to the multitude of the poets and to their
burdensomeness that Ireland's men were not able to find out what to do with
them; for the person who was satirised there, if he did not immediately die,
there used to grow poisonous ulcers upon him, till he was conspicuous to
everybody, and till there was deformity upon him always; but upon the poet
himself grew the ulcers, and he used to die immediately, if it was without
fault that he satirised. Now the poets were at Ibar of Cinntracht in the
territory of Ulster, for Ulster's king gave them 'coigny' three years, or
(may be) one whole year there. And it was then they set themselves to invent
stories, but they were wholly unable (to do it) as they used to tell them;
but to impose them on the wholly rude race among whom they were,
ready-tongued poets concocted the lying fables. Well, a message came from
Ireland's poets to Colum Cille, to the effect that it was to them he should
come before he went to Druim Cetta, the place where the kings were who
refused them. And so they invoked God's name upon the head of Colum Cille
and of the Christian faith ... was brought under his protection to Druim
Cetta. There came afterwards Colum Cille as he came from his boat, seven
twenties his number (of followers), ut poeta dixit:

Forty priests his number,
twenty bishops lofty power
at the psalm-singing without dispute,
fifty deacons, thirty students.

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of

Sent: Sunday, August 21, 2011 3:00 AM
To:
Subject: DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260



Today's Topics:

1. Re: Another theory on Connachta origins (Yair Davidiy)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:28:22 +0200
From: Yair Davidiy <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Another theory on Connachta origins
To:
Message-ID: <>
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed

At 04:56 AM 8/21/2011, you wrote:


>
>
>In a message dated 8/19/2011 2:26:31 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
> writes:
>
>I've no idea where M222 originated, but I'd speculate it was among the
>Belgae tribes of the Rhine...


M222 is present on the Continent, especially in the west.

Some of it may originate form Irish immigrants many of whom did go to
Europe.
Others are probably local.

Has anybody done any work on this??

Do the family names say anything?

Are there local concentrations??

Yair Davidiy
Jerusalem
Israel



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End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 260
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End of DNA-R1B1C7 Digest, Vol 5, Issue 261
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