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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-08 > 1313772613


From: Paul Conroy <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Venicones
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2011 12:50:13 -0400
References: <2e769.7c9fd71d.3b7f0706@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <2e769.7c9fd71d.3b7f0706@aol.com>


John,

A story of people fleeing wars with the Romans and taking to ships and
sailing up the Irish Sea, then settling in Ireland and Scotland is exactly
what the chronicles describe the Picts (Cruitin aka Cruitne) as doing. But
the Picts have tentatively been identified as the Pictones of the Bay of
Biscay - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictones - whose territory was just
South of the Veneti.

In terms of the ethmyology of the Venicones in the Veneti people from
Southern Armorica (Brittany later), and their possible origin in the area of
the Vistula and Oder, all I can say is that this theory can be tested. The
descendants of the Veneti are the Wends (aka Sorbs) of Germany -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends. Their Y-DNA is predominantly R1a1a. The
Veneti name also survives in the name of Venice, named after some who
settled in Northern Italy.

Cheers,
Paul

On Thu, Aug 18, 2011 at 8:23 PM, <> wrote:

> I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones
> and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal.
>
> _http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm_
> (http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm)
>
> This writer definitely sees a connection between the Venicones of the
> eastern lowlands of Scotland and the Venicnii of NW Ireland (Donegal). He
> further believes the names are derived from the Veneti of Gaul. The author
> gives a completely different interpretation of the name from other writers
> I've
> seen which deduce the
> -cones in Venicones from Cu or hound and Veni from Feni.
>
> The main reason I've always found this interesting is the fact that M222 is
> so prevalent in NW Ireland and especially in Donegal. The names date from
> Ptolemy's maps of Ireland and Scotland c. 150 AD. Irish historians tell
> us the sons of Niall weren't even in NW Ireland at that date - supposedly
> they migrated northward from their base in Connacht during or after the
> time
> of Niall (c. 400-450 AD). But perhaps Irish history isn't accurate.
>
> I found the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the
> possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which
> would
> be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people) and
> Con (of the hounds). And wondered if that could possibly have something
> to
> do with Conn, the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta in Ireland, the
> famous Conn of the Hundred Battles in Irish mythology. If this author is
> right than that possibility seems fairly remote.
>
> But we still are left with the oddity of two probably related tribes in
> Ireland and Scotland and the fact that the major hotspot for M222 in
> Ireland
> is found in the old territory of the Venicnii.
>
> I hesitated to make too much of this previously because until now no major
> scholar or site connected the two tribal names. Many over the years had
> noticed the similarity but none were willing to venture an opinion on
> whether
> both were the same tribal name.
>
> The author believes the Veneti, after their defeat in Gaul by the Romans,
> could have come to both Scotland and Ireland in ships.
>
> "One could easily postulate that the survivors of the Roman conquest of the
> Veneti in Gaul climbed into their boats and settled in Fife and Donnegal.
> And the rebuilt tribe that occupied Fife continued the fight."
>
> According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as
> Verturiones (Fortriu),
>
> "Once beaten in Fife by the renewed Roman attack on them, some of them
> apparently joined the Roman side, and were later rewarded with the
> Deceangli/Gangani territory in what is now north-west Wales, which the new
> owners
> promptly named after their tribe."
>
> "circa 390 - At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen
> (Old King Cole - see the Kings of Northern Britain), a branch of Romanised
> Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini)
> kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory
> is
> given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend
> it."
>
> He ends with:
>
> "One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to
> Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and
> Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and
> northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion."
>
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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