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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-08 > 1313713414

Subject: [R-M222] Venicones
Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2011 20:23:34 -0400 (EDT)

I just stumbled on a well done history web site that mentions the Venicones
and Venicnii of Scotland and Donegal.


This writer definitely sees a connection between the Venicones of the
eastern lowlands of Scotland and the Venicnii of NW Ireland (Donegal). He
further believes the names are derived from the Veneti of Gaul. The author
gives a completely different interpretation of the name from other writers I've
seen which deduce the
-cones in Venicones from Cu or hound and Veni from Feni.

The main reason I've always found this interesting is the fact that M222 is
so prevalent in NW Ireland and especially in Donegal. The names date from
Ptolemy's maps of Ireland and Scotland c. 150 AD. Irish historians tell
us the sons of Niall weren't even in NW Ireland at that date - supposedly
they migrated northward from their base in Connacht during or after the time
of Niall (c. 400-450 AD). But perhaps Irish history isn't accurate.

I found the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the
possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which would
be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people) and
Con (of the hounds). And wondered if that could possibly have something to
do with Conn, the ancestor of the Ui Neill and Connachta in Ireland, the
famous Conn of the Hundred Battles in Irish mythology. If this author is
right than that possibility seems fairly remote.

But we still are left with the oddity of two probably related tribes in
Ireland and Scotland and the fact that the major hotspot for M222 in Ireland
is found in the old territory of the Venicnii.

I hesitated to make too much of this previously because until now no major
scholar or site connected the two tribal names. Many over the years had
noticed the similarity but none were willing to venture an opinion on whether
both were the same tribal name.

The author believes the Veneti, after their defeat in Gaul by the Romans,
could have come to both Scotland and Ireland in ships.

"One could easily postulate that the survivors of the Roman conquest of the
Veneti in Gaul climbed into their boats and settled in Fife and Donnegal.
And the rebuilt tribe that occupied Fife continued the fight."

According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as
Verturiones (Fortriu),

"Once beaten in Fife by the renewed Roman attack on them, some of them
apparently joined the Roman side, and were later rewarded with the
Deceangli/Gangani territory in what is now north-west Wales, which the new owners
promptly named after their tribe."

"circa 390 - At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen
(Old King Cole - see the Kings of Northern Britain), a branch of Romanised
Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini)
kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory is
given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend it."

He ends with:

"One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to
Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and
Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and
northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion."


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