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From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription
Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 08:31:25 +0100
References: <7cc1a.15705ee8.3b01b5ae@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <7cc1a.15705ee8.3b01b5ae@aol.com>


What I had planned for today took much less time than I thought it would so
I have some time.

[Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple
times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are
inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled
the
databases.]

A Lemmons has cropped up on the Lamont site with DNA fairly close to mine.
Also, results are pending for a Lamont with a rock-solid pedigree showing
descent from the McPhadrick Lamonts of Coustoun. It may be worth a re-visit
once his results have come through. My belief is that the McPhadrick Lamonts
are M222 but let's await the results. McKechnie suggested that they were
descended from Duncan IV of Lamont. Donchad, I think, in MS1467. I stress
'suggested'. He points out that there is no record evidence to this effect,
and bases his thinking on the fact that a Patrick Lawmonson, thought to have
been the eponymous McPhadrick Lamont, had a coronership that he may have
acquired through descent from Duncan IV. His suggestion was that Patrick
Lawmonson may have been the son of a younger son of Duncan (meaning younger
than Robert in MS1467), and that could be how Patrick Lawmonson became
coroner. But as I've already said, there is no record evidence of this to my
knowledge.



[So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of
Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable
NPEs,
surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical
Scottish
surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is
clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical
material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known
chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet
none
has for the Scottish Maclachlans.]

Barra McCain is digging quite deeply into record evidence. He found
something in The Lamont Papers that I think has led him to believe that the
Argyllshire McLauchlane chiefly line daughtered out in the late 15th
century. It may be worth your while contacting him in this regard.


Sandy



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 16 May 2011 00:03
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription

In a message dated 5/14/2011 11:54:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That
door is
still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that
later.]

I look forward to that.

Don't hold your breath. Haven't we already had that discussion multiple
times? You know what the results show as well as I do. They are
inconclusive at best. I doubt anything has changed since we last trolled
the
databases.

I found another aspect of the new transcription interesting. Why aren't
the MacSweeneys included? Sure they settled in Ireland but some may still
have been in Argyll at about 1400 AD. I thought they might turn up as
something Skene missed but no.

I'm now, thanks to the new transcription, almost positive these Anradan
pedigrees originated in Scotland and initially only included the Lamonts,
Maclachlans, McEwans of Otter and the McSorleys of Moneydrain. I see no
reason for the exclusion of the MacSweeneys from this material except that
they
may not have been a valid member of the so called kindred. When they
settled in Ireland the Irish scribes borrowed part of their new pedigree
from
the O'Neills from a Scottish source. Probably because they knew they came
from the same general area of Scotland.

So far no one has made an attempt to describe what Maclachlan of
Argylllshire DNA looks like. Even if we take into account the inevitable
NPEs,
surname changes and everything else that can be found in the typical
Scottish
surname cluster there should still be a line of the chieftains that is
clearly related. Even a cursory inspection of the Maclachlan genealogical
material shows there were many historical lines in descent from the known
chieftains. These should show up as a related cluster at some point. Yet
none
has for the Scottish Maclachlans.

As admin. of the McLaughlin surname project I've been looking for a
Scottish cluster for years. And despite my well known views on the Anradan

kindred pedigree I am willing to let the chips fall where they may in DNA.

What we have in the McLaughlin project is one large group of M222
McLaughlins, quite a few of which can trace their descent to Donegal, Tryone
or
Londonderry, the three counties in which descendants of the old
MacLochlainn
of Tirconnell sept of Derry are still found today. My own is the most
detailed by far. We know our ancestors came from the townland of
Rathdonnell in
Kilmacrenan barony not far from the city of Letterkenny. The earliest
known ancestor of this family was probably born in about 1790. There are
no
records prior to the Tithe Applotment books that can be found.

In addition to this large cluster we have a group of M222 McLaughlins and
variant forms. There are eleven of these. They do not form a large
related cluster but small clusters of at best two or three possibly related

samples. Two samples give Scotland as place of origin. A few say Ireland.

The rest are unknown or give states in the U.S. Two Laughlin samples give
Tyrone and Ulster but are probably Scottish (according to them).

Then we have a lot of basic R1b. Several match the Leinster modal. One
possible group of three is U106/S21 based on one SNP test. A large group
are I haplogroup but of different flavors. It's not clear how many of
these
actually match each other. Another one has recently been found to be L144.

One is J2 haplogroup. A lot remain ungrouped because they match no one
else in the project.

We have no more than a few R1b haplotypes (non M222) that can be
considered a valid cluster.

There is nothing in this collection of DNA haplotypes one can point to as
possibly representing the line of the old chieftains of the Maclachlans of
Argyllshire. If any one can find one let me know. I'd be happy to hear
about it.

The Maclachlan component of the Anradan kindred has been ignored far too
long.


John



R1b1c7 Research and Links:

http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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