DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-05 > 1305435246


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription
Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 05:54:06 +0100
References: <17f52.2d410335.3b008998@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <17f52.2d410335.3b008998@aol.com>


[However it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That
door is
still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.]

I look forward to that. I'm awaiting DNA results for someone with a
rock-solid pedigree that goes back to the birth in 1710 of a McPhadrick
Lamont from Coustoun. The testee is (I suspect) my 1st cousin 5 times
removed. The results will no doubt confirm or contradict that.

But hey, what a great find.


Sandy




-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 15 May 2011 02:43
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] MS 1450 new transcription

In a message dated 5/14/2011 6:51:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
A new transcriptions of MS 1450 has been posted on the web and the Lamont
are now descended from a Abbot of Iona:
_http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html_
(http://www.1467manuscript.co.uk/kindred%2021.html)


Bernard made a pretty amazing find today. A new transcription of the MS.
1467 first translated by Skene. It's now clear Skene made a lot of
transcription errors. I can't resist saying this after all the grief I've
taken
in the last 10 years from certain quarters but the Anradan kindred will now

have to charge off after a new descent which is definitely not from the
O'Neills of Ireland. As Bernard reported the earliest figure in the
pedigree
is an Abbot of Iona named neill guirm or the black-haired Niall. However
it could be from a Cenel Eoghain or Cenel Conaill source. That door is
still open. Yet I'm not sure DNA samples prove that. More on that later.

Here's the pedigree:

genelaigh cloinni ladmainn .i.

Raiberd mac donnchaidh mhic
eoin mhic gilla colaim mhic ladmainn
mhic gillacolaim [altereed to gillasp(aig?] mhic ferchair
mhic duinnsleibe mhic aed alainn
.i. buirce mhic anradain
mhic flaitbertaig mhic connstantin
mhic muiredaigh ....?....
Mhic domnaill mhic gillacrist
mhic murachaidh .i. gilladdub [this line is very uncertain]
mhic neill guirm .i. ab ite

The genealogy of the Clan Lamont i.e.

Robert son of Duncan son of
john son of Gille Colaim son of Ladhmann
son of Gille Colaim or Archibald son of (?) the son of Fearchar
son of Duinnshleibhe son of handsome Aodh
i.e, Buirce son of Anradhan
son of Flaithbertach son of Constantine
son of .....?..... Muiredhach
son of Donald son of Gille Criost (?)
son of Murchadh (?) i.e., Gille Dubh (?)
son of black-haired Niall i.e. the abbot of Iona.

Whatever one might wish to make of this pedigree it's obvious it cannot be
a pedigree of the O'Neills.

The earliest known version is for the MacSweeneys (Ballymote and Lecan)
both about 1400 AD. That may be right about the time this MS. was composed

or a little earlier.

In both Aodh Allainn (called Buirch) is a son of Anradan. However in the
Ballymote and Lecan versions Anradan is a son of Aodh Athlaman. This is
the crucial name tying it into the pedigree of the O'Neills. However in
the
Ms. 1467 Anradan is a son of a Flaithbertach who is son of Constantine.
This is a complete break with the usual Anradan pedigree which includes a
Flaithbertach an trostain, father of Aodh Athlaman. And needless to say
there
is no Constantine in O'Neill pedigree. It adds further names that are
unidentifiable in the O'Neill pedigree (Gille criost, Gille dubh, and
lastly,
Nial guirm Abbot of Iona.

It's amazing that Skene misread this so badly. I suppose the Nial guirm
was his Nialgusa, which seemed to link up with the MacDonald line. Now we
know it doesn't.

Since the historical characters of the O'Neills are removed from the
pedigree it becomes impossible to date unless the Nial guirm of the
pedigree can
be identified. I don't know the names of many Abbots of Iona. I know
the O'Brollaghans were Abbots at the time of Somerled and later. They were

Cenel Eoghain centered near Derry in Donegal.

In case anyone is curious I know of four sons of Flaitbhertach an
trostain. They appear in the Annals. The names are:

Muirdach 1046
Domnall +1027
Aedh Athlaman +1033
Nial (B.502)

Nial had a son Aodh.(
B.502)

As far as I know none of these men were associated with the monastery of
Iona.

But on the whole it does make perfect sense that some M222 could have come
into Scotland through Iona and it's connections to NW Ireland in particular
to the religious center of Derry.



John

R1b1c7 Research and Links:

http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
-------------------------------
To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
with the word 'unsubscribe' without the
quotes in the subject and the body of the message


This thread: