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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2011-05 > 1305160812


From: "Don Milligan" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall of the Nine Hostages
Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 17:40:12 -0700
References: <BLU0-SMTP2498197477F79B83D1F28788860@phx.gbl><FE63D3AE-3D59-4E76-A9E1-0F09FCF8B44F@verizon.net>
In-Reply-To: <FE63D3AE-3D59-4E76-A9E1-0F09FCF8B44F@verizon.net>


Hi Folks:

We will still need to consider the presence of M-222+ among the
Brythonic-speaking Celts & Picts of Northeastern, Central and Southwestern
Scotland, Strathclyde, and greater Galloway, as well as Northern England,
Wales, etc..

I recently learned that I (a desc. of John Millikin of Co., Antrim N.I. in
1730, formerly Dumfriesshire, Scot. where I descend from a "Molgan" in 1210,
and quite likely from a "Macrath ap Molegan in 1296") have a 12 marker match
(need to learn more about these matches) with: a "McPherson" of Skye,
Scotland, a "Hodson" of Yorkshire, a "Williams" of Gwenedd, Wales, an
"Andersen" of Norway, a "Schaber" of BADEN-Wurttemberg, Germany, a "Kimball"
of Devonshire, Eng., & a "McCowan" of U.S..

12 markers are not much to go on. I do have 67 markers already tested, and
have recently ordered the 111 test along with another Milligan from
Dumfriesshire, and belong to a couple of
Milligan-Milliken-Millikin-Millican-Mullikin Projects.

I've become a believer that M-222+ did not necessarily solely originate in
Ireland, and that some of the Brythonic-speaking Celts who spread through
central and northern England may have been M-222+.

The two Welsh and one German matches above may indicate part of the
population flow into Britain and Scotland.

Some Histories of Wales do mention early movements of Irish raiders and
colonists into Wales from eastern Ireland, especially from the Dublin
vicinity.

Don Milligan

-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Bill Howard
Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 2:35 PM
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall of the Nine Hostages

Hi, David,
In my earlier note I mentioned that there is no evidence of a "Ghengis Khan
effect" -- at least as far as I have seen. I don't find it in the DNA tree -
no 'bulge' in population of M222 around the time Niall lived. And even
population statistics in the era of Niall are basically non-existent.
About the prominence in N Ireland etc.: Once a mutation occured in a
population that did not move around very much, there is a tendency for the
mutation to spread only locally.
About when M222 occurred: It will be part of a paper that is currently in
preparation. The process by which the date is estimated is a bit heuristic,
but I think it's basically correct. It may take a few months before it sees
the light of day since it is only part of a larger paper. The dating does
not depend on the average time between generations. More later on this one.
- Bye from Bill Howard

On May 11, 2011, at 5:13 PM, David H. MacLennan wrote:

> Dear Bill,
> I was interested in your comments on [R-M222] Niall of the Nine
> Hostages. Of course, you are correct concerning the identity of the
> descendants of Niall, but what about the descendants of the original
> carrier of the M222 mutation? Is there any evidence for or against a
> "Genghis Khan effect" for him? Otherwise, how did his Y chromosome
> become so prominent in a certain area of Ireland?
> Can you please summarize the evidence that the M222 mutation
> occurred in the BC era? I have not read your paper, but other
> communications seem to indicate that your evidence may be at odds with
> the more common view that
> M222 originated in the 4th to 5th century AD. Do you cite supporting
> evidence for your dating, which seems to depend heavily on the
> accuracy of your estimate of the average time between generations?
> Thanks,
> David
>
>
>
>> From: Bill Howard <>
>> Reply-To: <>
>> Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:30:36 -0400
>> To: <>
>> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Niall of the Nine Hostages
>>
>> No, there is not a modal for known descendants of Niall. For one
>> thing, the descendants are not really known. For another thing, there
>> is no way to determine a "modal" for a set of descendants because the
>> progenitor's haplotype is unknown and each line of descendancy
>> suffers different mutations through time.
>> As far as I know, there is no evidence that Niall was any more
>> prolific than others in his time (if he even existed.....). The DNA
>> evidence and plots of population increases (mostly such plots don't
>> exist for that era) show no indication of what may be termed the
>> "Ghengis Khan effect" where one person was responsible for so many
children.
>> Finally, there is a modal for M222 and you can be SNP tested to see
>> if you have it (otherwise it can be inferred by the marker values in
>> your haplotype), but I fail to see that it would prove you are a
>> descendant of Niall because the mutation that caused the M222 did not
>> originate with him, but did so in the BC era sometime. If Niall
>> carried the M222 subclade, it merely passed through him; he was not the
progenitor of the SNP.
>
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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