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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2010-09 > 1284221771

From: Marianne Granoff <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] TMRCA
Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2010 10:16:11 -0600
References: <AANLkTikdS_Y_Go4ZHDR4b5J44JKQ9JSceAbM1kC-PwvB@mail.gmail.com><4C8AA1BA.9040408@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <4C8AA1BA.9040408@aol.com>

While I don't know if this information will help
with the overall age of R-M222, I will submit it, in case it may be useful.

Background: The Munley/Manley Surname Project
has 14 individuals with roots in County Mayo
(only twelve shown at the URL below in Group
II). The original surname was Munnelly,
Monnelly, O'Maonaile, O'Manlie, O'Maonghaile or
some variation. With a handful of exceptions,
the surname appears only in County Mayo in the
Griffith's Valuation and is uncommon even
there. The name was often later Anglicized to
Manley in the US, UK, and Australia.


The four individuals that have been deep-clade
tested are R-M222. FTDNA has predicted one other
as R-M222. All individuals have almost all of
the classic R-M222 values with one or two exceptions in the entire group:

DYS 390 = 25
DYS 385b = 13
DYS 392 = 14
DYS 448 = 18
DYS 449 = 30
DYS 464a = 15
DYS 464b = 16
DYS 464c = 16
DYS 464d = 17
DYS 456 = 17
DYS 607 = 16
DYS 413a = 21
DYS 413b = 23
DYS 534 = 16
DYS 431 = 25

Uniquely, all have DYS 455 = 12, indicating a single common ancestor.

There are multiple oral family histories in these
families and at least one written reference to
the fact that the Monnelly / Munnelly surname
originally came from a group of fighting men from the Doherty clan.

According to John O'Donovan in the Ordinance
Survey Letters (1839) and others:

The name appears to have originated within the Ó
Dochartaigh (Doherty) Clan, who were a dominant
force on the Inishowen Peninsula of County
Donegal. Monaoile Ó Dochartaigh of Inishowen
moved his kinsmen to County Mayo sometime in the 16th century.

The place where they resettled became known as
"Baile Monaoile." Baile is the Irish word for
home or settlement. The name was eventually
Anglicized and became "Ballymonnelly," a townland
that still exists in Kiltane Parish. While not a
common Irish surname, there were many of these
families scattered around the northern half of
Mayo in the middle of the 19th century.

The Munley modal differs from the Doherty modal at

Doherty Munley
DYS 468 18 16
DYS 455 11 12
DYS 460 12 11
YCAIIb 22 23
DYS 576 18 17


Using Tim Janzen' ASD calculator:

Corrected ages for 12, 37, 67 markers with and without DYS 385


Giving a range of 1526 AD - 1828 AD - which sort
of fits with the oral histories and O'Donovan's
"16th century" statement if he meant the 1600s not the 1500s.

The average is 298 or about 1712 AD

Without the 12 marker results, the average is 344 or about 1666 AD.

I have been trying for the last five years to
find and convince people who are straight-line
male Munley, Munley, etc. with ancestral roots in
County Mayo to be tested and join this
project. There are two more possibles as of this week.

There are few written records in Mayo that
survived the famine years. The majority of these
individuals came from families that immigrated to
the US during that period. Most cannot trace
their ancestors back more than 3-4 generations.

I am very interested in the TMCRA calculations as
a way of understanding the history of these
families. Other TMCRA calculations show about
350 years for the common ancestor. That does not
differ much from the 344 year average.

The fact that this group is probably R-M222 and
reportedly originated with the Dohertys is
essentially supported by the DNA results that I
have seen. Does anyone know if there have been
studies to show that there are more (or a higher
incidence of) marker mutations in groups under
unusual stress (war, famine, etc.)? It seems
logical to me that a body under stress might show
more marker mutations, but I am not a geneticist.

I would appreciate any comments, criticisms,
clarifications, opinions, or other words of advice.

Marianne Manley Granoff
Project Administrator
Munley/Manley Surname y-DNA Project

At 04:23 PM 9/10/2010 -0500, you wrote:

>If anyone would like a copy of the Jantsen ASD calculator you can find
>it here:
>My own tentative conclusion is that ASD TMRCA estimates do agree in
>general with the known genealogy of the McLaughlins of Donegal, at least
>for the sample set we have today (25).

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