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From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clann Lugach mac Laoghaire
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2010 19:33:26 +0100
References: <dd2dd.d9a2151.39a5d641@aol.com>,<SNT128-W4402071AE6E679A4F13620BB840@phx.gbl>,<AANLkTi=EV_4iSVN_4JxsymokLv6RrhqsfUx+z+rOMvsP@mail.gmail.com> <SNT128-W259BC18C1CCDD04DEDA978BB8B0@phx.gbl><4C7EC37B.4090709@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <4C7EC37B.4090709@aol.com>


>
Rather than all this historical minutiae I'd like to know if anyone
thinks that DNA supports the genealogies linking surnames to different
sons of Nial. You've got Dohertys, McLaughlins and a fair amount of
O'Gallaghers to work with, Some Connachta DNA (McGovern has a large
project). Does DNA support a TMRCA estimate of ca. 400 AD.? This might
be an impossible question to answer since the TMRCA estimates of the
entire haplogroup only go back to 200 AD. plus or minus.
>

I don't think the fact there are differences between McLaughlin/Doherty
markers and McGovern markers in any way suggests that the two families are
not descended from Niall. In fact I'd be most surprised if all the families
that developed from brothers ended up with the same modals.

Simulations over 60 generations suggest that only around 10% of what
eventually end up as modals are 67/67 equal to the founder haplotype. Mostly
they seem to match the founder about 62 to 67 out of 67. So the myth that
the modal is equal to the founder haplotype is nonsense.

It IS however, in mathematical terms, what's termed the 'best estimate' of
the founder haplotype but just as TMRCA's have an error margin, so too do
modals, used to estimate the founder haplotype, have an error margin.

Another myth about modals which is disproved by simulation studies is that
modal change continually over time. In simulations, they tend remain
unchanged after about 15 generations, with any changes taking place early
on.

That doesn't mean they NEVER change later on but it would require a
bottleneck for that to happen.

When last I estimated the TMRCA's for McLaughlin and Doherty, the estimates
did NOT support a TMRCA of 400AD but that could be due to bottlenecks, or
small sample sizes. Only something like 0.00075% of the male population of
the world has been DNA tested. I'll have a look at McGovern if I have a
chance tomorrow.

On a different topic, do you have a name for FTDNA Kit no 165067? He has
some interesting modal mismatches.


Sandy










-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of John Mclaughlin
Sent: 01 September 2010 22:20
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Clann Lugach mac Laoghaire

On 9/1/2010 2:11 PM, Bernard Morgan wrote:
> In reading about Ruman, I find the Irish experts referring to Clann Enna
mac Laoghaire as Cenel Enna. Can I make the assumption that Enna mac Neill
is a creation and Cenel Enna is in reality Clann Enna mac Laoghaire?

I'd be careful about that. Enna m. Nial was one of the three sons of
Nial who are said to have migrated to Donegal/Tyrone in the 5th century.
There's a territory in Donegal bordering the Inishowen Peninsula named
Tir-hEnna. There are minor chieftains of this territory named in the
annals through about the 1300s.

I did find this though:

Cenél Eanna

The Cenél Eanna, or 'race of Enda', descend from Eanna, the sixth son of
Conall Gulban. They are listed as kings of Magh Ith, Tir Eanna, and
Fanad in present-day County Donegal, a territory around the southern tip
of Inishowen.

Yet another Cenel Eanna to confuse things?

<There is negative a side to this reasoning. That is the early history
of the Ui Neill has been heavily distorted…

So say the historians. There's an article out there claiming Conal
Cremthainn s. of Nial was really Conal gulban.

I've seen statements by historians that the number of Nial's sons
increased dramatically at some point. But I haven't seen any
documentation on the theory.

The earliest genealogical tract (Laud 610) is difficult to decipher.

Níall mac Echach, cethri maic déc leis .i. Conall err Breg, Conall
Gulpain Guirt, Eogan, Carpre, Lóegaire, Fíachra, Mane, Énna, Óengus
h-Uillderg, ulderg Fergus Antem, Fergus Mátlorg, Trian, Húathgen, Coíldub.


As far as I know this says Niall son of Echach, [had] four good sons,
but then the text seems to go on to list a multitude of sons.

Rawlinson B.502 has the same basic passage but uses Roman numerals,
¶763] Niall Noígiallach m. Echach .xiiii. mc leis .i. "

(14 good sons?)

I wouldn't in the least be surprised to find a lot of artificiality
among the neat division of Ui Neill tribes descended from different sons
of Nial.

The neat division between Ui Neill and Connachta probably is artificial
as well, at least as stated in the genealogies (half brothers of Nial).

There is a very strange entry in the Annals of Ulster.

U563.1

The battle of Móin Daire Lothair won over the Cruithin by the Uí Néill
of the North. Baetán son of Cenn with two branches of the Cruithin(?)
fight it against the Cruithin. Cenél nEógain and Cenél Conaill were
hired, being given the Lee and Ard Eolarg as recompense.

The Chronicon Scottoruam has more or less the same entry:

The battle of Móin Daire Lothair won over the Cruithin by the Uí Néill
of the North, in which fell seven kings of the Cruithin including Aed
Brec. Baetán son of Cenn with two branches of the Cruithin fight it
against the Cruithin, and Cenél nEógain and Cenél Conaill fought it for
hire, for the Lee and Ard Eolarg. Of this Cennfaelad sang:

If someone hired the Cenel Eoghain and Cenel Conaill I'd like to know
who among the Ui Neill of the North hired them. They were the Ui Neill
of the north (or so they say).


Rather than all this historical minutiae I'd like to know if anyone
thinks that DNA supports the genealogies linking surnames to different
sons of Nial. You've got Dohertys, McLaughlins and a fair amount of
O'Gallaghers to work with, Some Connachta DNA (McGovern has a large
project). Does DNA support a TMRCA estimate of ca. 400 AD.? This might
be an impossible question to answer since the TMRCA estimates of the
entire haplogroup only go back to 200 AD. plus or minus.


John










R1b1c7 Research and Links:

http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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