DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2010-08 > 1280694759

Subject: Re: [R-M222] How long has M222 been in Scotland?
Date: Sun, 1 Aug 2010 16:32:39 EDT

In a message dated 8/1/2010 4:11:54 A.M. Central Daylight Time,

But if Ewing indeed went through a bottleneck, it could simply be that the
survivor(s) of the bottleneck just happened to have a greater number of
modal misses than most other Ewings prior to the bottleneck. Had the
opposite been true (that the survivor(s) had a lower number of M222 modal
misses than the average Ewing), the Ewing modal of today wouldn't be nearly
as distinctively different from M222 as it is.

I would expect most Scottish M222 samples to be bottlenecked. I do not
think that M222 in Scotland was ever associated with a specific tribe or if
it was there is no possible way now to retrieve that information. Lowland
Scotland especially was overrun repeatedly by Anglo-
Saxons, Vikings, and Norse. Whatever tribal structure originally existed
must have been destroyed centuries ago. I think some of the old ruling
chieftains held on for a while such as the Kingdom of Strathclyde but they
disappear before 1000 AD. New barons held most of the land and their
supporters probably came mostly from their own ranks. DNA would have been
scattered. I can see a M222 strong man rising to prominence under the new
political landscape long after most of his kin went extinct. That is how I see
families like the Ewings of Duncans. Stray bits of DNA that rose to
prominence in a sea of different DNA.

SInce we do not know what the other Ewings DNA looked like prior to the
"bottleneck" that's an impossible argument to follow one way or the other.
All we know is the current Ewings have more off modal mutations than many
other members of the M222 cluster. A few other Scottish surnames seem to
follow the same pattern but not all. In fact as you've said recently it's
almost impossible to be sure if a surname really is Scottish. A huge number
of surnames in the M222 project and on Ysearch are singletons. What can be
said about a single surname sample?

Mostly the samples in the Mj222 project appear to be about the same age to
me, aside from a few examples.

One of Ken N's last statements prior to withdrawing from the list was it
was very difficult to tell if the M222 populations in Ireland or Scotland
were older. That was a rare bit of candor for him because he mostly enjoys
blasting people who disagree with him and he was perhaps the leading advocate
for the origin in Ireland theory of M222.

Even if the Ewings seemed a little older because of the greater number of
off modal markers I'm not sure that means much because it wasn't by a huge
factor. And not all Scottish family groups show the same kind of results
(that's assuming we're even looking at Scottish groups).

<I note that he specifically talks of "a family branch that is more closely
related...". He doesn't speak of a family or surname modal, but refers
specifically to 'a family branch'. To me this implies an acceptance of the
possibility of deviation from the family or surname modal.

John McEwan, as far as I can tell, based all his groups on genetic
distance alone and did not search for modals.

<More profiles on supposedly related families. These include the Lamonts
other Dal Riadic groups families, if they are truly related they should
have a family branch that is more closely related to the Ewings than just
the R1bSTR19Irish group as a whole."

That's a reasonable statement. I'm not sure the term Dal Riadic groups
has any meaning at all though. You could compile a list of them and compare
DNA. Some for a while thought the Scot modal of Ken N. represented the Dal
Riata in Scotland. I don't know if that ever caught on or not. But with
Scottish clans if you don't have a current chieftain to test I'm not sure
how valid the results might be. Look at your Lamonts. More R1a than
anything else. Who were the line of the old chieftains? The Clann Donnachaidh
in their DNA project made no claims about the line of the chieftains. It's
obvious they have no idea and are puzzled by the huge number of unrelated
Duncans in their project.

I think it's about time others on the list gave their opinions or offer up
new ideas for discussion. I'm tired of being forced into constant
arguments because no one else will respond to anything.


This thread: