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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2010-07 > 1280518084
From:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Off-modal matches - simulation
Date: Fri, 30 Jul 2010 15:28:04 EDT
With all this about the Historian's be leaving this and that, and people
saying that the those doing the DNA tracking don't know what their talking
about? Like the old adage say's blood is thicker then water, DNA with
outweigh those who take information from stories or hearsay pasted down over
hundred of years?
In a message dated 7/29/2010 2:48:21 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
In a message dated 7/28/2010 10:14:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
I'm trying to establish as fact that M222 predates Niall, and I'm
further guessing that it is a French or Iberian outcome, not an Irish
one. My guess is that there were separate migrations from mainland
Europe. There is also the issue of whether there ever was a Dalriadic
migration Ireland to Scotland, because some have argued that the M222
came along on that occasion.
I'll send my paper about this to you if you wish.
David
I'd enjoy reading your paper. I did mean Millikin, by the way. I can't
count the number of times people have screwed up my name.
I know a lot of people point to the Irish Dal Riata as a source for M222
in Scotland but I doubt it myself for two reasons. At least one Scottish
archeologist (Campbell) doesn't believe the supposed migration ever took
place and the legend is just a foundation myth for the Scottish kings;
and
secondly, Antrim is not now a hotbed of M222 and there is no reason to
suppose
the Dal Fiatach and Dal Riata tribes of Ulster had any M222 connections.
Most Irish historians believe that the Irish Dal Riata, if they did
relocate
to Scotland, did so under pressure from the Ui Neill tribes pushing
northward into new territory.
I don't think there's any doubt M222 precedes Nial. Even the Irish
authorities agree Nial was part of a large tribal group present in
Ireland before
his time, mostly called the Dal Cuinn or Connachta. A large group of
Irish septs in the west are M222 and many have traditional pedigrees from
alleged brothers of Nial. Some historians doubt the accuracy of this
division
but I think most accept the general idea that there was a shared
inheritance
of some kind between the descendants of Nial and the Connachta, if not
exactly that specified in the pedigrees.
O'Rahilly used Ptolemy's Map of Ireland as one of his proofs that the
tribe of NIal was not in Ireland ca. 150 AD. O'Rahilly also believed the
material in Ptolemy's map preserved the tribe names of a much earlier
Greek
geographer, but opinion is divided on that point. There really isn't a
tribe
name in Ptolemy's map that can be safely connected to the Dal Cuinn or
Connachta, the earliest tribal designations in Ireland. Of course
perhaps half
the names or more in Ptolemy's map can't be connection to historical
tribe
names so that isn't proof of much. It's interesting though that scholars
see the Dal Fiatach and Dal Riata as present in the Voluntii (Ulaidh, Dal
Fiatach), Robogdi and Darini.
I have a copy of Campbell's paper (Were the Scots Irish?) if you'd like
to
read it. I think he's pretty much of an iconoclast though in
archeological circles. His article states the available evidence shows
the migration
pattern going the other way - from Scotland to Ireland.
John
R1b1c7 Research and Links:
http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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