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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2009-12 > 1260303676


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Coyne and Golden project families
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 20:21:16 -0000
References: <000001ca7511$5af28ee0$10d7aca0$@com>, ,<200912070018.nB70IdmE020890@mail.rootsweb.com>, ,<000301ca77e0$cfe37350$6faa59f0$@com>,<BLU116-W24D7331F6904673A6FFC02A98F0@phx.gbl>,<000001ca7820$11e976c0$35bc6440$@com><BLU116-W13A9097750515F1CAD251EA98F0@phx.gbl>
In-Reply-To: <BLU116-W13A9097750515F1CAD251EA98F0@phx.gbl>


I share your thoughts about the limitations of STR's. They are very helpful
in 'close' genealogy but less so in deep genealogy.

My understanding of the walk thro' the Y project is limited to understanding
that it's an SNP discovery project, but the processes are beyond my ken. I
think more and more in terms of full genome analysis, also beyond my ken,
but the exhaustiveness of the process appeals.

Sandy



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy
Sent: 08 December 2009 19:10
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Coyne and Golden project families


One wonders in that case why the vendors don't mention this when they
explain how to measure or estimate degree of relatedness - unless they are
worried about losing sales. Random convergence *within* my own surname is
something I'd rather not have to think about, especially if the surname has
arisen independently twice within M222...

This is why these days I am more interested in the progress of WTY, and
regret my lack of cash to join in. I think STRs have taken me as far as they
are going to.

Iain

http://www.kennedydna.com


> From:
> To:
> Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 16:04:06 +0000
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Coyne and Golden project families
>
> Hi Iain
>
> I searched unsuccessfully for a Chandler posting (it was in the general
DNA
> forum - I forget the forum's precise name), but I did find something at
>
>
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gkbopp/DNA/CommonHaplotype
> s.htm
>
> that comes close to explaining what happens.
>
>
> The author uses the expression 'common haplotypes' which is a bit of a
> misnomer. It would be more accurate I think if he used the expression
'near
> modal haplotypes'.
>
> What happens is that near modal haplotypes have far more apparent
'matches'
> than haplotypes that are off-modal. Mackenzie 26917 for example has no
fewer
> than 185 matches over 67 markers within a gd of 7. Paul Conroy, at the
other
> extreme (far off modal) has only 1 match within a gd of 7. That's out of a
> population of 364 67 marker M222+ haplotypes.
>
> Of the 185 Mackenzie matches, I stopped counting when I reached 43
different
> surnames - my guess is that there are about 100 different surnames within
a
> gd of 7 of Mackenzie.
>
> As you move gradually from a gd of zero from the M222+ modal towards the
> highest gd (Paul Conroy), the apparent number of 'matches' declines. In my
> case (I match the M222+ modal 60/67) I have only 12 matches within a gd of
7
> in the same M222+ population. The gd of 7 is arbitrary - the same applies
to
> other gd's.
>
> The point is that an on-modal match at one or more markers doesn't suggest
> anything unusual and therefore cannot indicate kinship (beyond just being
> M222+).
>
> A single off modal match may indicate a stronger kinship, but it may just
be
> a parallel mutation. Two off-modal matches is stronger evidence and
probably
> warrants investigation. Once you get to 3 or more off-modal matches, you
can
> be fairly sure that there is kinship beyond just being M222+. (Regardless
of
> how many off modal matches there are, paper trails remain important).
>
>
> Hope that helps.
>
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Iain Kennedy
> Sent: 08 December 2009 14:51
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Coyne and Golden project families
>
>
> Sandy,
>
> Thanks for the posts but I don't see an explanation about why the
> significance of a match should depend on closeness to the overall modal.
If
> there has been a Chandler post giving the maths behind this perhaps you
can
> point it out.
>
> The modal of the Kennedy group appears to exactly match the overall M222
> modal. This is a separate matter but I presume the same logic applies,
that
> it lacks any special significance.
>
> regards
>
> Iain Kennedy
>
> http://www.kennedydna.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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