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From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Coyne and Golden project families
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:41:12 -0000
References: <000301ca74f8$8ed9a4a0$ac8cede0$@com><17322771.11627991259950390685.JavaMail.root@sz0106a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>
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Hi Marie

Consider Mackenzie, kit number 26917 who matches the M222 modal 67/67. Now suppose there is another 67/67 match with the M222 modal, by someone called Smith. It means nothing.

However, consider two people who match the M222 modal 59/67. If they match each other 67/67, then they are probably very closely related.

The general statement that if two people have a 66/67 match then they are probably related within a genealogical time frame is just that - a generalisation. The real expert on this subject is a fellow called John Chandler, but I suspect that FTDNA will confirm what I've said. For peace of mind, I suggest you take it up with FTDNA. They're normally very helpful.

The key is to seek off-modal matches. Two M222+ people who both match the M222+ modal 67/67 have no off-modal matches. There is therefore absolutely no evidence of any kinship beyond both being M222+.

The more off-modal matches between two M222+ people, the greater the probability of kinship beyond just being M222+.

Hope that helps.


Sandy



-----Original Message-----
From: [mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 04 December 2009 18:13
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Coyne and Golden project families



Sandy,



I'm sorry, but I'm very confused by your assertion, "Close matches when one of the parties is near modal M222+ mean nothing at all."



Is the fact that they're near modal M222+ irrelevant? And if so, why? I have always been confused by what matching near/at the modal means re Niall.



And, according to FTDNA , a 67 -1 match means the men are probably related in a genealogical time frame. I keep looking for those 67 marker matches, assuming that I might find a relative. Am I totally misunderstanding something? What does a 67 marker match mean then?



Marie



P.S. Yes, my father's parents were from northeast Mayo, on Killala Bay near Sligo.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
To:
Sent: Friday, December 4, 2009 10:43:34 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Coyne and Golden project families

Hi Terry

The 2 Coyne's match the M222+ modal 66/67. Golden matches it 65/67, and the
Coyne's match Golden match 66/67.

But it means nothing!

The best way to illustrate this is by considering Mackenzie, kit number
26917. He matches the M222+ modal at all 67 markers and therefore matches
the 2 Coyne's 66/67. Does this mean there has been an NPE at play between
Mackenzie and Coyne? Absolutely not. Close matches when one of the parties
is near modal M222+ mean nothing at all.

Sandy






-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Terry Strasser
Sent: 04 December 2009 14:15
To:
Subject: [R-M222] Coyne and Golden project families

I've been away from the list for a while, and I'd like to expand a bit on
Marie Kerr's comments in posts on the Golden and Coyne families, which I've
just found. The two Coynes in the R-M222 project, one of whom is my
brother, who match exactly at 67 markers, are demonstrably 4th cousins.
They are descended from a relatively recent common ancestor who predated
immigration. They were born sometime in the late 1820s to 1830 in Ireland.
The two lines have been unknown to each other for generations. The two
brothers they trace back to, Thomas and John Coyne, immigrated to the US
during the famine years and set up as painters in Brooklyn, New York during
the 1850s. They were in business together for a year or two, they sponsored
each other's children in baptisms, and they have family members in one plot
in Holy Cross Cemetery. Thus the DNA study supports a persuasive paper
trail linking the two US ancestors. Another descendant of one of the
brothers in an earlier generation than the testees had a family tradition of

origin in County Roscommon (this man's grandfather, one of those two
immigrant brothers, was mentioned in his obituary.) All bore the Coyne
surname. A probable younger sister was baptized in 1830 in County Westmeath

near the border with County Roscommon, and her father was given as Patrick
Coyne. There is no indication that the father Patrick ever immigrated,
though his widow did, along with at least three Coyne children (those two
brothers and the younger sister.) The immigrant Coyne daughter too was
linked to the two immigrant brothers by church records and a common cemetery

plot.



More recent DNA research has shown a clear relationship between a son of the

one of the two testees in the R-M222 project, and the brother of an Irish
researcher also named Coyne, whose family has been independently traced back

to County Roscommon as early as 1766. These Irish Coynes have a family
tradition of a more distant origin in the north, and they consider
themselves unrelated to the Coynes of Galway and Mayo. The two male Coynes
in the more recent study, one whose family never left Ireland and the other
a descendant of one of the immigrant Coynes, share 82 of 84 tested Y-DNA
markers (not FTDNA.)



The two project member Coynes are apparently closely related to the project
member Golden, since they differ by one marker only at 67 markers. Where
and when the relationship occurred, however, is unclear. No Irish
connection has yet been made. I have found a Golden living next to a Coyne
in County Roscommon in the Griffith's evaluation of the mid-nineteenth
century, but no other evidence, and I believe the US Goldens trace their
ancestry back to County Mayo.



There may well have been an NPE somewhere, but one other thing I might point

out is that the Coynes have many Y-DNA matches in the FTDNA database, even
at 67 markers. Last time I looked, there were 66 matches at a genetic
distance of 4 or less, at 67 markers. None shares the Coyne surname except
for the two distant cousins. Another GD 1 match at 67 markers is a
MacKenzie with no known connection to either Coyne or Golden.



So far as I am concerned, the only thing all this shows unequivocally is
that still more research is needed! --Terry

R1b1c7 Research and Links:

http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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