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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2009-04 > 1240213083


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Byrne TMRCA Estimates
Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:38:03 +0100
References: <c3b.4fc4108d.371d1710@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <c3b.4fc4108d.371d1710@aol.com>


Hi John

>
There are certain off modal values shared by elements of the M222 project.
One of the strongest of these is DYS 391 = 10. 83% of the M222 project
has 391 = 11. 14.4% have 391 = 10. There are other shared markers in the
project but 391 is different in that it's a slow moving marker. As another

example 21% of the M222 project have DYS 458 = 18. That's an even higher
percentage but 458 is a fast moving marker.
>

I don't think we should just ignore the faster moving markers. For example,
Ewing 65018 has no fewer than 5 off-modal matches with Henry 105286 :

DYS43913
DYS44931
DYS45618
DYS57018
CDYa37


You can find Henry, participant number 434 at

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ulster/default.aspx?section=yresults


Sandy




-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 20 April 2009 01:09
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Byrne TMRCA Estimates

n a message dated 4/19/2009 12:29:49 P.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

My thought would be to start
with the R:M222 modal and see if we could find any pattern of off-modal
matches considering all of the surnames for which we have enough haplotypes
to compute a meaningful surname modal.

We've been doing that for some time. The histograms I posted are just
another way of looking at the project. Part of the problem is it is huge
(now
about 500 samples). It's hard to wade through and analyze that much
material. I think what you're talking about here are M222 family modals -
there
are quite a few of those - each has a combination of marker values that
differs from the M222 modal values.

There are certain off modal values shared by elements of the M222 project.
One of the strongest of these is DYS 391 = 10. 83% of the M222 project
has 391 = 11. 14.4% have 391 = 10. There are other shared markers in the
project but 391 is different in that it's a slow moving marker. As another

example 21% of the M222 project have DYS 458 = 18. That's an even higher
percentage but 458 is a fast moving marker.

458 = 18 is modal in McLaughlins and Dohertys from Ireland. It also
occurs in several other surname groupings. 391 = 10 is found in Ewings in
Scotland (among others) and in the Breifne clans of Connacht in Ireland
(O'Rourke, O'Reilly, McGovern).

DYS 391 = 10 is apparently a back mutation from the modal 11. Or could it
be ancestral? That seems unlikely since the AMH is also modal at 11.

The problem I have is you have a lot of M222 families linked by one shared
marker (391=10). But you'd be hard pressed to find another marker they
share that truly unites them as related. When you only have one off modal
marker in common it seems likely to me that is just parallel mutations.

In the family modal markers they generally share from two to three off
modal M222 marker values. The Dohertys are one example. They have at
least
two off modal values.

DYS 458 = 18
YCAIIab = 19-22

The McLaughlins of Donegal are also modal at DYS 458 = 18. They lack the
Doherty YCAIIab19-22 but have two off modal values of their own.

DYS 447 = 24
DYS 576 = 17

In the case of the Dohertys about 10% of the M222 Dohertys also have the
McLaughlin off modal values.

The marker in the first 25 where M222 most frequently differ is DYS 449.
66.8% of the project have the M22 modal 30. But this is a fast moving
marker and the totals for other values aren't that high. 18.7% = 31.
10.9% =
29. In comparing samples with these values I see nothing that ties them
together as related based on this one marker value.

I see 391 as possibly relevant because it is the only slow moving marker in
the first 25 to have a significant portion of M222 differing from the M222
modal. DYS 458 = 18 holds significance for McLaughlins and Dohertys but
I'm not sure it goes beyond that.

I'm not through with this yet but I posted results for the first 25 markers
at this site:

_http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222Repeat.htm_
(http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/M222Repeat.htm)

David Wilson posted similar repeat count charts with fewer samples on his
old M222 site.



John




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