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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2009-04 > 1239402549
From:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Quiet on the List?
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 2009 18:29:09 EDT
In a message dated 4/10/2009 4:06:21 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:
Dunbar, O'Doherty and Ewing all seem closer to McLaughlin than to M222+ as
a whole.
Cowan, Byrnes and McCord all seem marginally closer to M222+ than to
McLaughlin.
This is where this kind of analysis falls apart for me because I can't
think of any possible connection between Dunbars, O'Dohertys and Ewings.
I don't know if this is accurate or not:
"The Dunbar surname is derived from the name of the Barony
of Dunbar on the North Sea coast near Edinburgh. The place
name comes from the Gaelic words "dun," meaning "a fort,"
and "barr," meaning "top," or "summit."
First found in the Lothians where they were seated from very
ancient times, some say well before the Norman conquest
and the arrival of Duke William at Hastings in 1086 A.D."
It's easy enough to see connections between Dohertys and McLaughlins in
Ireland. They're spelled out in great detail in the Irish genealogical
tracts. But Scotland is a complete blank (for me at least).
What I keep coming back to is this:
In Ireland the Dohertys (Cenel Conaill) and McLaughlins (Cenel Eoghain) are
said to descend from two sons of Nial ca. 400 AD. TMRCA estimates vary
but David Wilson (using Tim Janzen's spreadsheet which uses various ASD
methods) initially placed the common ancestor at 400 AD. He later retracted
that to some extent saying it could be as early as 0 AD. or even a few
centuries B.C. I'm not sure if anyone else has arrived at radically different
dates.
I do not know if the M222 common ancestor lived in Ireland or Scotland.
But he could not have lived too many centuries prior to Nial if the date
estimates are correct. This DNA could have come to Scotland from Ireland in
the centuries preceding Nial - or it could have come to Ireland from
Scotland in the same time period. What everyone tends to do is assume the DNA
came to Scotland after the time of Nial. That is why everyone leaps to
possibilities like the wild geese, wandering monks, Irish religious foundations,
even the Anradan story to explain the DNA in Scotland. I see no reason why
this DNA wasn't to be found in both Ireland and Scotland prior to the time
of Nial. If that's the case then there is no written history to give us a
clue as to what happened. There could well be an early link between the
Irish Dohertys and McLaughlins and the Scottish Ewings and Dunbars but none
of us can have any idea what it might be.
John McEwan once suggested that genetic diversity might give us a clue as
to where M222 originated. But I don't see anything that says either
population, in Ireland or Scotland, is more diverse than the other. Both seem
equally old. In comparisons in the McGee utility the Ewings seem a little
more diverse than either the Dohertys or McLaughlins but not by a huge
amount. In terms of genetic distance from the M222 modal the Dohertys might
average 5-6 GDs and the Ewings 6-7.
I think these families shared a pre-Nial ancestor. Where he lived I
haven't a clue.
There is one highly speculative line of thought I've seen in various
forums. In Ptolemy's map of Ireland c. 150 AD. he lists a tribe named
Vennicnii in what is now Donegal and surrounding areas. That's right in the heart
of NW Ireland where so much of the M222 DNA is concentrated. In Ptolemy's
map of Scotland we also find a tribe called the Venicones in the south east
lowlands. There are some who have tried to draw a connections between
these two tribe names although no reputable historian would touch that with a
ten foot pole (too speculative). At least one author thinks he sees the
root word Cu (hound, Con. genitive form) in the Venicones. And here it's
almost impossible not to wonder about the original tribe name of the Ui Neill
in Ireland, Connachta or Dal Cuinn, based on the name of Conn 'of the
Hundred Battles', a legendary ancestor of Nial. The author mentioned says the
name Venicones would translate to something like the "tribe of the hound."
Venn or Veni would mean something similar to the Irish "feni."
It is strange that O'Rahilly in his opening chapter on Irish mythology
discussed all of the tribe names found in Ptolemy's map of Ireland in detail
except for one name which he never mentioned - the Vennicnii. That is an
inexplicable omission. I even wondered if the name Vennicnii did not appear
in certain versions of Ptolemy's map. I got nowhere trying to research
that.
If there is a possible connection between the Vennicnii of Donegal and the
Venicones of Scotland then Irish history must be wrong. It's generally
accepted that the sons of Nial (Eoghan, Conal gulban and Enna) migrated into
Donegal sometime during or shortly after the time of Nial.
O'Rahilly tries to explain away some things he doesn't understand about the
tribe names in Ptolemy's map by claiming his material on Ireland must have
been taken from a much earlier map by a Greek geographer in about 300 BC.
But I've read other historians who disagree with him. And most seem to
think his tribal divisions of England and Scotland were contemporary and
mostly accurate.
That is the only possible M222 link I see between Ireland and Scotland in
early history and I'll be the first to admit it's pretty shaky.
John
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