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From:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Quiet on the List?
Date: Wed, 8 Apr 2009 16:50:01 EDT


In a message dated 4/7/2009 9:38:50 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
writes:

the blessed quietude this list has imposed on itself?

It has been quiet, hasn't it? But then if you follow the GEN-DNA list
that's been quiet too. The only thing going on right now is the new FTDNA Walk on
the Y project which hasn't received any attention on this list. It's
expensive ($750). I can't explain exactly how it works but the idea is sequence a
large portion of unexplored DNA in an attempt to locate new SNPs.
Researchers are hoping to discover new SNPS that further sub-divide L21 of which M222
is currently the only major sub-clade. There is also the possibility of
finding private SNPs or SNPS that might further subdivide M222 itself. FTDNA has
stated that if new SNPS are discovered they will be offered for testing at
normal prices later.

Pat Tagart recently posted that at least one M222 has agreed to take part in
the test. I don't know who this is. I know of one other L21 modal cluster
group that has accumulated enough donations to pay for one test (464xccgg).
Pat is attempting to collect donations for other L21 samples.

I think one of the reasons it's been so quiet on this list is there is
nothing new to talk about. No one has yet discovered any way to sub-divide M222
based on STR analysis. All we see are a lot of family modals.

To give one example from an area I'm familiar with.

Every major Donegal clan sept I've seen so far is heavily M222. That
includes McLaughlins, O'Dohertys, O'Gallaghers, O'Donnells, O'Boyles, Bradleys,
McGinleys and others. The Dohertys with their large DNA project are a good
example. The great majority of Dohertys tested from anywhere in Ireland are
M222. A relative handful are non matching haplogroups (I, R1a). Another
relatively small group are R1b but not M222. The Dohertys have a few distinctive
family markers shared by almost all in the large M222 group.

Most of the Donegal clans are said to descend from Conal gulban, one of
the sons of Nial in Irish legend. That dates to about 400 AD. The clan name
is Cenel Conaill. Yet we can find nothing in the DNA samples that
distinguishes the Cenel Conaill from descendants of other sons of Nial or even the
Connachta, said to descend from half-brothers of Nial. Nor can we find anything
that distinguishes the Cenel Conaill from the many M222 surnames found in
England, Scotland or further abroad.

For many of these Donegal M222 septs DNA samples are lacking. There are
very few good O'Donnell tests over 12 markers, few O'Gallaghers, fewer O'Boyles.
A lot of Bradleys and McGinleys were tested as part of the Trinity project
but that amounts to a 12 marker test at FTDNA. There are currently only two
decent sized DNA projects involving Donegal septs (O'Dohertys and
McLaughlins) and we can't draw much of a conclusion based on two lines. A few of the
Connachta clans have large surname projects such as McGovern, but many of the
surnames are underrepresented (O'Rourke, O'Reilly).

I've been concentrating on the Donegal septs because that is one sub-set of
M222 of which we know something from history. The pedigrees of their major
chieftains have been preserved in Irish manuscript; many can be traced out in
the Irish annals. The same thing is true of the major Connachta clans. We
have at least some idea of how they are related. In contrast we know nothing
about the M222 found in England and Scotland.

One idea that occurred to me (it might not be correct) is the M222 cluster
is too young to contain recognizable sub-clades. The most recent TMRCA
estimates still come in around 0 AD, plus or minus a few centuries. That's not
long before the time of Nial himself (400 AD). Even the earliest date of ca.
200 BC. is not that far off. We will never learn anything from Irish history
that can help solve the mystery. Prior to Nial there is just a string of
names in pedigrees. O'Rahilly claimed that an ancestor some 10 generations back
in the tree named Tuathal Teachtmar was the their invasion leader who led
them to Ireland. But mythology just presents Tuathal as an Irishman exiled in
the womb to Scotland who later returned to claim his rightful inheritance.
Not much to go on there.

I can't say that M222 is only found in Ireland among the Ui Neill
(descendants of Niall) or Connachta, descended from his half brothers. So many of the
M222 surnames in Ireland are of unknown origin. A lot of the M222 in Ulster
appears to have come to Ireland with the Scots in the Plantation period. The
Trinity study did find it heaviest in territories known to have been held by
Ui Neill or Connachta chieftains. That was also reflected in the original
name for the cluster by David Wilson (Northwest Irish).

Here's a breakdown of the current Doherty DNA project (reporting 116
members).

G haplogroup (1)
I haplogroup (5)
J haplogroup (2)
R1a haplogroup (2)
R1b group - not M222 (6)
Second R1b group - not M222 (6)
M222 (78)
Unclassified (9) some of these aren't Dohertys

One of the characteristic O'Doherty DNA markers is YCAIIab = 19-22. It's
unusual in Donegal M222. 53 Dohertys have extended tests that include this
marker. 45 have 22 at YCAIIb. The current O Doherty chieftain from Spain
matches this DNA.

The question of course is who are the R1b that carry the surname in Ireland
but are not M222? Only one can trace his ancestry to Donegal. The rest just
say "Ireland" or the U.S. It's possible some of these men descend from a
different Doherty sept in Ireland. MacLysaght gives one possiblity - the O
Dubhartaighs of Munster, found as Doorty, Doherty.

The G haplogroup Doherty spells his name Daughtry. He may not even be a
Doherty from Ireland.

Our McLaughlin DNA results are more complex since there are more possible
origins to the surname in both Ireland and Scotland. But are single largest
group (about 21 members) are M222 and most share a few distinctive marker
values that set themselves apart from the rest of M222.

There is an interesting aside to studying the O'Doherty clan DNA. The
latest Trinity study did not find such an overwhelming concentration of a single
DNA in septs associated with Munster (the Eoghanachta and Dal Cais). They
showed much more evidence of multiple founders and/or interlopers taken into the
clan.


John

















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