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From:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Origin of M222
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:54:44 EST
In a message dated 1/10/2009 2:32:24 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
I think where I get lost is why invasions or large scale migrations (either
the knowledge thereof or the lack of evidence thereof) have any bearing on
where M222 originated.
I don't know that I have an answer for that. The DNA gurus tells us M222
originated in Ireland because "that's where the haplotypes are." Presumably
then known migrations might tell us where it scattered to after that. Alan
thought that the location of M222 haplotypes outside of Ireland could not be
explained by any known migration (lowland Scotland, England). For him this cast
some doubt on whether M222 originated in Ireland.
How do we know that M222 did not originate in lowland Scotland? Why does it
have to be in Ireland? There are lots of Scottish M222 samples. If you
scroll through the M222 project it appears to me that Scottish surnames actually
predominate. For all I know Niall himself or one of his immediate ancestors
may have come to Ireland from lowland Scotland. A lot of the surnames in
Ysearch which list Ireland as place of origin may actually be Scottish
plantation stock from the lowlands which is where the authorities say most came from.
As far as that goes, how did all the M222 samples get to Germany? Or
elsewhere in Gaul. I simply do not find the wild geese argument compelling.
They're busy arguing about where L21 originated on the GEN-DNA list.
There's no agreement there and I certainly expect no agreement on this list as to
where M222 originated. All I see are multiple possibilities. Dr. Faux once
said he thought M222 might have originated in Gaul.
Here's an old post of his:
" 3) R1b1c7 is doubtless a recent mutation on M269 Y-chromosomes and is
confined to those whose ancestry is traced to Northwest Ireland (although it
may occur elsewhere as a result of migration, or if Spain or France perahps
because the first M222 emerged there).
And of course we have the much maligned O'Rahilly who said the northern
goidels came directly to Ireland from Gaul and found no trace of them in
Ptolemy's second century map of Ireland. But there's no trace of them in Scotland
either in Ptolemy's map unless the Venicones of the SE lowlands fit the bill.
That's an interesting tribe name. At least one major historian sees the root
of the name as Ven plus Conn (genitive of Cu, hound). Ven might be similar
to the Irish Feni (people, people of). He renders the name as the tribe of
the hounds which might fit. After all, one of the ancestors of Nial was Conn
'of the Hundred Battles' and the tribe name was originally Sil Conn or Dal
Cuinn. It later evolved into Connachta. But Conn, according to O'Rahilly,
wasn't even an historical person, but an ancestral god. Does the name Conn
actually apply to the hound of the Venicones and not a real person?
What happened to the Venicones? Lowland Scotland was over run by Angles and
Saxons, not to mention Normans and Norse. The kingdoms were destroyed, the
people possibly scattered to the four winds. For me that's as good an
explanation for M222 in lowland Scotland as anything else I've heard. Some could
have scattered into northern England as well. Where did the Venicones come
from? Possibly from Gaul?
I just think there are a lot of possibilities and one can't make any
definite statements yet about the origin of M222.
John
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