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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2009-01 > 1231587341


From: Daniel Jenkins <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Origin of M222
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 11:35:41 +0000
References: <c20.4d7801b4.36996808@aol.com><000001c972fd$dd9baff0$98d30fd0$@com>
In-Reply-To: <000001c972fd$dd9baff0$98d30fd0$@com>


John, Sandy ,

Maybe a reread of chapter 16[ pages 84-89] in MacManus' " The Story of The Irish Race ",

will offer a clue about what you are searching for . He recounts many of the Irish/Pict. incursions

into England and elsewhere from abt. 100 -450 ad .

Dan Jenkins

> From: > To: > Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:31:42 +0000> Subject: Re: [R-M222] Origin of M222> > Hi John> > I think where I get lost is why invasions or large scale migrations (either> the knowledge thereof or the lack of evidence thereof) have any bearing on> where M222 originated. Also, surely the mere presence of the Gaelic language> in both Ireland and Scotland is evidence enough of migration between the two> countries? I can see no reason why that migration couldn't have been a dribs> and drabs process over a century or two. So I guess this leads to a question> : Are you aware of any evidence of when Gaelic is first found in Scotland?> > A quick aside here : Just as RTE is busy with their Blood of the Irish> series, so too are the BBC busy with a short series on the history of> Scotland. The first episode was broadcast on Sunday 4 Jan and the second is> to be broadcast on Sunday 11 Jan. A streaming video of the first one is> available online at> > http://broadband-television.com/>; > Click on ENGLISH LANGUAGE TV in the menu on the left hand side, then click> on British TV. Then click on Home (next to BBC Scotland). Scroll to the> bottom and click on the picture in the bottom left hand corner.> > I need to watch it a few more times, but I do remember mention being made of> the fact that St Columba needed interpreters in order to communicate with> the Picts, so clearly St Columba spoke a different language. Maybe this fact> is recorded somewhere, in which case there is reasonable evidence of the> presence of Gaelic in Scotland at least as far back as St Columba's time.> > Back to the origins of M222.> > One question that bothers me is this : It seems to be generally (not> necessarily universally) accepted that Niall was M222+. Surely the discovery> of L21, together with recent age estimates of M222+ should lead us to> consider the possibility that Niall was L21+, M222- and that the mutation> occurred sometime soon after Niall's death?> Wouldn't that also provide an explanation for the low percentage of M222+> amongst the Southern Ui Niall? The problem though is that the L21+, M222-> modal bears very little resemblance to the M222+ modal, so I think this is> unlikely. But I must say I'm beginning to strongly doubt whether L21+, M222-> could possibly have spawned a haplotype that bears even the vaguest> resemblance to the M222+ modal in the timeframe available (I've used 3500> years), which it would have to have done for it to have been parental to> M222+. But I'm rambling now. > > Then > > >> it almost seems to me as if > there were some kind of common origin in both Ireland and Scotland around> the > first century A.D. or at least prior to the time of Nial (400 AD). I know> of > no historical migration one way or the other that might explain that.> >> > That's my feeling too. In fact I'd go a step further than that. I think> Argyll and NE Ireland were the same 'place' for quite a while. I get the> strong impression from the BBC program that Scotland only came into> existence as what we now call a 'country' some time later. So I think we may> be wrong in trying to reason in terms of different countries when thinking> about M222 origins.> > > Sandy> > > > > -----Original Message-----> From: > [mailto:] On Behalf Of > Sent: 10 January 2009 02:55> To: > Subject: Re: [R-M222] Origin of M222> > In a message dated 1/9/2009 1:02:49 P.M. Central Standard Time, > writes:> > Except that you know I meant NW Ireland and not NE Ireland, as I was> responding to the statement by the writer that> > Alan was referring in his post to the two known migrations of Irish to > Scotland or England. One is of course the Irish Dal Riata from the NE> (Antrim). > The other is the less well known migration of several Leinster/Munster> tribes > into Cornwal and Wales. His point was that neither area in Ireland is a > hotbed of M222 and therefore these migrations cannot be used to explain the> > presence of M222 in either Cornwal and Wales or in Argyllshire. He said he> would > feel more comfortable in thinking that M222 originated in Ireland if M222 > did come to these locations as part of known migrations. But we don't find> it > particularly strong in any of these locations.> > If M222 did originate in Ireland it was probably in Connacht (somewhere).> > It did not migrate into NW Ireland until about 400-450 AD. That seems to> be > the current thinking of Irish historians. That would agree with the> current > thinking of most DNA experts as well. The alternative is O'Rahilly's > theories about M222 coming to Ireland from Gaul and establishing itself> first in the > midlands before branching out into Connacht and the NW. Tom O'Connor of> the > Truroe book appears to have come up with yet another theory about the > Connachta (Belgae from Gaul). I have no idea yet if his theory has any> support > among Irish historians or if he's just another enthusiastic amateur.> > Some of us have already tried checking genetic distance for Irish vs. > Scottish M222 samples. Nothing conclusive seems to come from this. No> group seems > obviously older or more diverse than another. it almost seems to me as if > there were some kind of common origin in both Ireland and Scotland around> the > first century A.D. or at least prior to the time of Nial (400 AD). I know> of > no historical migration one way or the other that might explain that.> > > John> > > > > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=htt>; p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De> cemailfooterNO62)> R1b1c7 Research and Links:> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/>; -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the> quotes in the subject and the body of the message> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/>; -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
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