DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

From:
Subject: [R-M222] Origin oif M222
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:41:25 +0000 (UTC)
In-Reply-To: <2094140601.944581231583216699.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>

"I feel a little uncomfortable addressing the note below since it comes from
someone who is not in the M222 forum, and he doesn't have the opportunity to
respond."

Sandy et al,
I saw Alan Riding's post on the other forum. Sometimes he makes sense, sometimes he does not. For example, in that post (or was it a different one on this subject) he said there is no archaeological evidence of a direct migration from Iberia to Ireland. Elsewhere I believe he cited as other evidence the dearth of L21 in Iberia while in Ireland 80% have it. He comes close to calling Oppenheimer a charlatan. I am not knowledgeable enough to defend Oppenheimer, but I still think his theories should be kept in mind. Oppenheimer did not propose a direct migration, a la the Milesian myth. He discussed migrations that took centuries to complete, that traveled along seashores which later were covered by water as the glaciers melted. Any archaeological evidence is deep under. Alan and others who argue that the crossing from the continent to Ireland was via Doggerland rather than a southern coastal route may be right, but the origin point--the ice age refuge--could have been the sa!
me. If the L21 mutation occurred on the continent, and the M222 one, say, in Doggerland, then a few stray y-chromosomes could have been dropped off en in Britain en route to Ireland--but Ireland was resettled long before the M222 mutation is thought to have occurred.
Regarding the L21 argument--wasn't there a recent David Wilson posting in this board that estimated the age of P312 as 4-5000 YBP? That is long after the glaciers retreated and Ireland was resettled, so it follows that the people whose descendants reached there had left Iberia (or wherever their ice age refuge was) long before the P312 mutation occurred. The L21 that some use as evidence against an Iberian origin is downstream of P312 and therefore even younger.
Sandy's suggestion that the age of M222 in Ireland, Scotland, and elsewhere be calculated separately is a good one, but how to group them since there is so much overlap in Irish and Scottish surnames, and the mutation occurred before surnames. Perhaps we can tackle the Irish first.
Paul

This thread:

• [R-M222] Origin oif M222 by