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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2009-01 > 1231576302


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Origin of M222
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:31:42 -0000
References: <c20.4d7801b4.36996808@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <c20.4d7801b4.36996808@aol.com>


Hi John

I think where I get lost is why invasions or large scale migrations (either
the knowledge thereof or the lack of evidence thereof) have any bearing on
where M222 originated. Also, surely the mere presence of the Gaelic language
in both Ireland and Scotland is evidence enough of migration between the two
countries? I can see no reason why that migration couldn't have been a dribs
and drabs process over a century or two. So I guess this leads to a question
: Are you aware of any evidence of when Gaelic is first found in Scotland?

A quick aside here : Just as RTE is busy with their Blood of the Irish
series, so too are the BBC busy with a short series on the history of
Scotland. The first episode was broadcast on Sunday 4 Jan and the second is
to be broadcast on Sunday 11 Jan. A streaming video of the first one is
available online at

http://broadband-television.com/

Click on ENGLISH LANGUAGE TV in the menu on the left hand side, then click
on British TV. Then click on Home (next to BBC Scotland). Scroll to the
bottom and click on the picture in the bottom left hand corner.

I need to watch it a few more times, but I do remember mention being made of
the fact that St Columba needed interpreters in order to communicate with
the Picts, so clearly St Columba spoke a different language. Maybe this fact
is recorded somewhere, in which case there is reasonable evidence of the
presence of Gaelic in Scotland at least as far back as St Columba's time.

Back to the origins of M222.

One question that bothers me is this : It seems to be generally (not
necessarily universally) accepted that Niall was M222+. Surely the discovery
of L21, together with recent age estimates of M222+ should lead us to
consider the possibility that Niall was L21+, M222- and that the mutation
occurred sometime soon after Niall's death?
Wouldn't that also provide an explanation for the low percentage of M222+
amongst the Southern Ui Niall? The problem though is that the L21+, M222-
modal bears very little resemblance to the M222+ modal, so I think this is
unlikely. But I must say I'm beginning to strongly doubt whether L21+, M222-
could possibly have spawned a haplotype that bears even the vaguest
resemblance to the M222+ modal in the timeframe available (I've used 3500
years), which it would have to have done for it to have been parental to
M222+. But I'm rambling now.

Then

>
it almost seems to me as if
there were some kind of common origin in both Ireland and Scotland around
the
first century A.D. or at least prior to the time of Nial (400 AD). I know
of
no historical migration one way or the other that might explain that.
>

That's my feeling too. In fact I'd go a step further than that. I think
Argyll and NE Ireland were the same 'place' for quite a while. I get the
strong impression from the BBC program that Scotland only came into
existence as what we now call a 'country' some time later. So I think we may
be wrong in trying to reason in terms of different countries when thinking
about M222 origins.


Sandy




-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 10 January 2009 02:55
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Origin of M222

In a message dated 1/9/2009 1:02:49 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

Except that you know I meant NW Ireland and not NE Ireland, as I was
responding to the statement by the writer that

Alan was referring in his post to the two known migrations of Irish to
Scotland or England. One is of course the Irish Dal Riata from the NE
(Antrim).
The other is the less well known migration of several Leinster/Munster
tribes
into Cornwal and Wales. His point was that neither area in Ireland is a
hotbed of M222 and therefore these migrations cannot be used to explain the

presence of M222 in either Cornwal and Wales or in Argyllshire. He said he
would
feel more comfortable in thinking that M222 originated in Ireland if M222
did come to these locations as part of known migrations. But we don't find
it
particularly strong in any of these locations.

If M222 did originate in Ireland it was probably in Connacht (somewhere).

It did not migrate into NW Ireland until about 400-450 AD. That seems to
be
the current thinking of Irish historians. That would agree with the
current
thinking of most DNA experts as well. The alternative is O'Rahilly's
theories about M222 coming to Ireland from Gaul and establishing itself
first in the
midlands before branching out into Connacht and the NW. Tom O'Connor of
the
Truroe book appears to have come up with yet another theory about the
Connachta (Belgae from Gaul). I have no idea yet if his theory has any
support
among Irish historians or if he's just another enthusiastic amateur.

Some of us have already tried checking genetic distance for Irish vs.
Scottish M222 samples. Nothing conclusive seems to come from this. No
group seems
obviously older or more diverse than another. it almost seems to me as if
there were some kind of common origin in both Ireland and Scotland around
the
first century A.D. or at least prior to the time of Nial (400 AD). I know
of
no historical migration one way or the other that might explain that.


John





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