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From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Common markers in M222
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:13:11 -0000
References: <e0d2d2870901060721j18203b04g31a4fb6cb2160287@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <e0d2d2870901060721j18203b04g31a4fb6cb2160287@mail.gmail.com>


Hi David

>
and it is pretty much impossible to find a non-Ewing who has any three of
them.
>

Have a look at The Ulster Heritage site, under the O Cathain group.
Participant no 374, Kit Number 105286 who goes by the surname of Henry, is
13,31,18 at DYS 439,449,456 if I'm not mistaken.

If you take a closer look at the whole group, you'll see that 13 at DYS439
is common. Also, 18 at DYS456 crops up fairly frequently. There aren't too
many 31's at DYS449 but this is a group of less than 40 people. Pretty much
impossible? I don't think so.


Sandy



-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of David Ewing
Sent: 06 January 2009 15:21
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Common markers in M222

The last time I counted, the Ewing Project had 104 participants. Two thirds
of these (69) had haplotypes within genetic distance 5 of the overall Ewing
modal, and constitute a distinctive cluster within M222+, characterized by
differences from the M222+ modal at DYS 439 = 13, DYS 449 = 31, DYS 456 = 18
and DYS 442 = 11 (and also CDYa/b = 37/38, which is the R1b1b2 modal rather
than the M222+ modal, for what that may be worth). Not all of the Ewings
have all four of these markers, but the vast majority of them do, and it is
pretty much impossible to find a non-Ewing who has any three of them.

About one third of the Ewing participants in this cluster (22) also differ
from the M222+ modal at DYS 391 = 10. Interestingly, if I do ASD TMRCA
calculations separately on those with and without DYS 391 = 10, the group
with DYS 391 = 10 appears to have a more distant MRCA. I have not given this
too much credence, though, because I think this is partly due to the fact
that we have more known family groups within the DYS 391 = 11 group than
within the DYS 391 = 10 group. It has been suggested to me that I take only
one representative from each known family and re-run the TMRCA calculations.
Maybe that is a good idea, but undoubtedly there will still be family groups
within the data that we have not identified with conventional genealogy.

Plainly, all 69 of the Ewings in our closely related group have a common
ancestor. If it turns out to be true that the DYS 391 = 10 group has a more
distant common ancestor, then we will have to adduce a back mutation at this
STR to explain why the DYS 391 = 11 group has the ancestral M222+ value at
this marker. If you are interested in more detailed discussion of the Ewing
group structure, have a look at
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/431003/Results_Intro.pdf.

Though this last may not belong in this thread, we have three participants
within the M222+ Ewing cluster who have DYS 390 = 24: two of them with DYS
391 = 11 and one with DYS 391 = 10. There is nothing to suggest any
particularly close relationship among these three men, and for now, we are
considering these to be relatively recent parallel mutations. Incidentaly,
Chandler's estimate of the mutation rate of DYS 390 is 0.00311 and of DYS
391 is 0.00265, but I think we should not get too carried away by the
distinctions between more slowly and more rapidly mutating markers within an
order of magnitude of one another. Mutations happen, or we would all be out
of business.

If you are interested in seeing an unusual way of displaying surname project
results, have a look at the Ewing M222+ phylogeny diagram I have prepared at
http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/431003/EwingM222%2BTree.pdf
You will need to blow this up several-fold to see what is going on. It takes
awhile to get used to looking at data displayed this way, but let me tell
you, trying to make a diagram like this will really give you a better feel
for what your data looks like and may mean. The main surprise I encountered
was how many of the mutations have to be parallel or back mutations in order
to match what we know on the basis of conventional genealogy.

David Ewing
R1b1c7 Research and Links:

http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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