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From: "Paul Conroy" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] Connachta Origins of M222
Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:54:55 -0500
References: <952944364.6181231241661861.JavaMail.root@sz0128a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net><496369EB.4080503@aol.com><9656caf80901060849o286822b6r490df8ccd18238cf@mail.gmail.com><49639536.1000702@aol.com><9656caf80901061046j7ab693f9x90a22321dc905217@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <9656caf80901061046j7ab693f9x90a22321dc905217@mail.gmail.com>


John,
Also see this site:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~williamfinnerty/sd1.htm

More evidence for a Belgic invasion of Ireland, centered on the Shannon
estuary:

There are no contemporary written Irish records from the 1st/2nd Century
A.D. For this we must depend on the Greek geographer and cartographer,
Ptolemy <http://homepage.eircom.net/~williamfinnerty/ptolemy1.htm>;. His work
is generally regarded as excellent so it should be assumed that his record
of 1st/2nd Century Ireland is accurate. However, because it does not fit in
with the accepted version of Irish history, that the High Kings ruled from
Tara, it has not been interpreted correctly. Indeed it has been assumed that
Ptolemy's informants were not well acquainted with the wild western shores
of Ireland and while the North, South and East portions are reasonable, the
Western section is not correct. This interpretation seems to be inaccurate.
Rather than being unfamiliar with the West coast, the seafarers of the time
were very familiar with the West of Ireland. One ancient reference states *'Ath
Cliath Magh Ri (Clarinbridge, Co Galway) was chief seaport of Ireland
visited by seagoing vessels and through which Ireland has most often been
invaded'.* Another reference by the Roman author Tacitus states that no
British seaport was better known to sailors, than Irish seaports,
undoubtedly referring to Ath Cliath Magh Ri. Yet another document states
that *'all ships sailing the high seas visited Ath Cliath Magh Ri'.* And
this is not surprising since of the 11 Irish population centres listed by
Ptolemy he recorded one as *'the most illustrious city with the most
celebrated name in all Britannia and the most considerable place in size,
situated in the west of Ireland'*.

An ancient Irish document the 'Dindsenchas' of Carn Conaill (near Athenry),
relates that under the leadership of Dela, son of Gann, 2000 warriors landed
at Ath Cliath Mag Ri (Clarinbridge) and went on to capture Temhair, which
was held until then by the aboriginal Cruithin. The legend further states
that Dela went to Dail, settled on the 'Hill of Great Assembly' (Cnoc na
Dail, Knocknadala today) and established an 'Oenach' or 'Feis' on the
adjoining hill, the origin of Feis Temhro. The 'Feis' was generally held on
a prominent height, the only one close to Cnoc na Dail being Cnoc Temhro
(Turoe). Dela had a son called Mil who built a beach-head fort on the Aran
Islands and another near Clarinbridge, both were called Murvoch Mhil. When
he inherited his father's throne he built his palace at Rath Mhil
(Rathville) on the summit of Knocknadala. His Fir Belg people erected the
Belgic defensive system surrounding the two hills of Turoe and Knocknadala
as one oppidum entirety.

Other little known documents such as the 'Dindsenchas' of Medraige (Maree,
Oranmore) give a brief genealogy of Dela. Fermhor (Ferach Mhor), son of
Eremon (Erc), son of Dela, son of Gann. This Ferach Mor is also called
Eochaid Ferach Mhor and was the father of Queen Medb. Another source
corroborates this as does British legendary history and Roman records.
Ferach Mhor had his fortress on the top of Turoe Hill. The Turoe Stone (see
later) was positioned at this Rath as the coronation stone of the Kings.

So with this in mind, let us take a fresh look at Ptolemy's map of
Ireland<http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Gazetteer/Periods/Roman/.Texts/Ptolemy/2/1*.html>;,
without the preconception of Tara. The features given in his record are
acceptably accurate. There are two Capitals called Regia which are centres
of power where Overkings reigned. One of these is in the North at Eamain
Macha (present day Armagh) and the second is placed in the centre of Co.
Galway, precisely where Turoe/Knocknadala is. Tara is conspicuous only by
its absence.

Turoe, Regia E Terra of Connaught. Both Tara and Turoe share exactly the
same name in Irish, namely Temhair. In its genitive form it is Temhro, ie.,
"Cnoc Temhro." In the dative form it is Temhra, ie.,"i Temhra" Ptolemy named
the Galway Regia as Regia E Tera (which is as near as he could get in Greek
to the Irish "Te[mh]ra"? Ptolemy's record as it stands has 'Regia etera'
which should be amended to its original correct form, 'Regia e Tera' (=
Royal Capital in 'Te[mh]ra'). Error probably entered the text in the
transition from majuscule to minuscule Greek lettering which occurred well
after Ptolemy's day. The archaeological site of the Turoe/Knocknadala/Cotiny
corroborates Ptolemy's literary record in a most astounding manner. When
Cnoc Temhro was anglicised the 'Cnoc' was dropped, so Cnoc Temhro, Feis
Temhro and Ri Temhro, all names found in ancient Irish documents, can just
as easily refer to Turoe as to Tara. There is ample evidence that Turoe and
Knocknadalla were the royal sites of prehistoric Kings of the Fir Belg who
dominated Iron Age Ireland. This evidence exists in ancient documents, in
the geographical features of the area, the townland names of the surrounding
townlands, the folklore of the area and the memories of the elder
generation.

On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 1:46 PM, Paul Conroy <> wrote:

> John,
> Check this out:
> http://www.handofhistory.com/photos/displa...bum=1&pos=1<http://www.handofhistory.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=1>;
>
> *Celtic Manapi, Morini & Atrebates were driven SW into Belgium, N France &
> S Britain. The Morini lost Kassel Morinorum to the Manapi who renamed it
> Kassel Manapiorum. The Atrebates lost Thuroit and established Thouruanna &
> Ait Regia (Atrecht) near Belgium's upper Door River. Advancing Roman legions
> forced the Belgae to devise and erect an elaborate Belgic defensive system
> around their Capitals.*
>
> So having been pushed out of this area, they took to sea and invaded
> Southern England, South Eastern Ireland and Western Ireland.
> Remember that one of the great invasions of Ireland was carried out by the
> FIR BOLG or FIR BELG - where FIR=Men (like Latin Vir=men), thus rendering
> the name "Men of Belgae".
>
> See these book excerpts from "Hand of History, Burden of Psuedo History" by
> Tom O'Connor
> http://www.handofhistory.com/
>
>
> Especially this excerpt from the book:
> http://www.handofhistory.com/excerpts.html
> *P. 78
> Having examined the unique Belgic defensive system on the Continent and in
> Britain, it is time to look at those areas of Ireland to which the Belgae
> (Fir Belg) migrated and set up their primary settlement areas.
>
> P. 80
> Belgic tribes from SE England led by Gann (Commius) and Sengann invaded
> along the Shannon estuary in W Ireland where Ptolemy located the Gangani.
> Dela, grandson of Gann, invaded through Ath Cliath Magh Ri *- EDIT: aka
> Clarinbridge -* in Galway Bay. He made Turoe/Knocknadala in central Galway
> the core of his kigdom where Ptolemy located Regia e Tera (REGIA E TE[mh]RA,
> Capital at Turoe) and NAG na TAL (Knocknadal).
>
> P. 89
> Chapter 2 reconstructs the Turoe oppidum and its Belgic defensive system.
> Thrill to the 'discovery' of Ptolemy's "most extensive acropolis in all
> Britannia" of one of the most massive oppida in Celtic Europe.
>
> P. 120
> Ptolemy located Regia E Tera in central Co. Galway where Turoe (Cnoc
> Temhro) stands today.
>
> P. 184
> Ptolemy's Regia E Tera in Western Ireland is as close a rendition of the
> Irish Regia e Temhra (minus the silenced 'mh' = Capital at Turoe, e Temhra)
> as one could achieve in Greek letters.*
>
>
> Also this map of Turoe:
> http://www.handofhistory.com/photos/displa...um=1&pos=20<http://www.handofhistory.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=1&pos=20>;
> Turoe (Ptolemy's 'REGIA E TE[MH]RA': 'Temhair' or 'Cnoc Temhro' as old
> Irish speakers insist; 'Temhroit' in some archaic references, literally
> echoing the Continental Thuroit/Theruanna - c.f. Map of Belgica, top of
> photo file) in central Co. Galway in W Ireland.
>
> This all seems to point to a Fir Bolg/Belg aka Belgae origin of the
> Connachta, and hence the Ui Neill...
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 12:30 PM, John Mclaughlin <> wrote:
>
>> <There is an alternate theory of where Tara - seat of the Irish high
>> kings - was actually located, that is Turoe in central Galway. This
>> would accord to where Ptolemy of Alexandria, writing in about 200 AD,
>> said it was in his geography of Ireland.
>>
>> Paul, that's an interesting theory. I don't know enough to form much of
>> a judgment about it though. It does make me wonder though. I never
>> have found much southern Ui Neill DNA in Ysearch. Weren't they
>> supposedly kings of Tara or at least Kings of the territory of Meath in
>> which Tara was located? If Tara of the Connachta was not in Meath but
>> Galway it makes me wonder if the southern Ui Neill really did descend
>> from Nial and/or the Connachta as the pedigrees state.
>>
>> We've got tons of M222 in the NW and adjacent counties, lots in
>> Connacht, but so far very little in Meath or the midlands in general. I
>> know you and your Dunnes are M222 - and I've found a handful of possible
>> southern Ui Neill DNA matches - but nothing on the scale of what we've
>> found in the NW and Connacht.
>>
>> In our McLaughlin DNA project I've been on the lookout for any
>> McLoughlin DNA that might be M222 from Meath or anywhere in the
>> midlands. We haven't found any yet although we do have some
>> unidentified M222 McLaughlins who don't match the Donegal cluster.
>> According to O'Donovan and other surname experts, the old Kings of Meath
>> and High Kings of Ireland were the O Maelsechlainns (O'Melaghlins).
>> The spelling of their name is supposed to have changed to McLoughlin at
>> some point in Irish records. I also haven't found any M222 surnames
>> that can be linked to the Sil Maine, another southern Ui Neill group.
>> There is one surname on Sorenson that might be M222 and southern Ui
>> Neill - Geogheghan.
>>
>> U7NDR Dunn U.S.
>> 3G5W3 Dunne Kings/Offaly, Ireland
>> A2GCJ Molloy Tipperary, Ireland
>> SMGF Geoghegan Westmeath
>>
>> I find this very strange since one hardly has to look for M222 in other
>> parts of Ireland. It's all over the place.
>>
>>
>>
>> John
>> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>>
>> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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>
>

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