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Subject: Re: [R-M222] R-M222 Variation of 390=24
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:27:26 EST
In a message dated 1/3/2009 6:35:53 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
One problem is that while histories identify many local names--such as the
sub-chiefs of the Ui Fiachrach Muaidhe chieftains the O'Dowds (of the 20 septs
under The O Dowd in west Sligo that were listed by Mac Firbis the three
principal ones were O Kavanagh, O Muldoon, and O Conway)--there is no certainty
that they were Ui Fiachrach. They could have been remnants of much older
occupants of their areas. So, an O Feeny or O Connaughton of west Sligo may well
have been subservient to the O Dowd, but not necessarily M222 (as many but
not all present-day O Dowds are).
That's true. I think you're talking about the Topographical Poems here,
aren't you? They do list the local chieftains in every territory as of about
1200 AD. but we can't be sure what their descent is unless there is a pedigree
in some manuscript. And even those might be fudged.
O Clery only has pedigrees for a few Ui Fiachrach families:
O'Dowd
O'Clery
O'Shaughnessey
MacGiolla Ceallaigh (MacKilkelly)
Ui Mochain (O Mohan)
Ui Aidhin (O'Heiden)
I've never been sure what to make of the Connachta and their descent from
half-brothers of Nial. O'Rahilly pointed out the descent was probably a
fiction - Mong Fionn, their mother, was a mythological figure, as was her supposed
father, the King of Connacht. If they were actually descended from Nial one
might think the Irish scribes would have included them in the Ui Neill
pedigrees. But they did not. I've always thought therefore the Connachta somehow
descended from the same line as Nial but from further back in the family
tree. How far back it's impossible to say. DNA implies there is a link - most
of these surnames are M222. One of my closest matches in DNA other than
McLaughlins is a McGovern (Ui Briuin).
I think part of the problem we're having is there simply aren't enough
samples available yet for many of these surnames. I only have 12 M222 Gallagher
samples, some of whom are cousins. You probably need 30-40. Ditto for the
O'Donnells (16 samples, half of which are 12 markers). I've only got one 37
marker O'Donnell sample. I have only 1 O'Boyle sample from Donegal. The
Dohertys of Donegal are a great example of a healthy Irish DNA project (over 100
samples). Paul has a substantial O'Beirne project of his own but many others
are lacking.
I have sporadically made attempts to gather all available Ui Neill and
Connachta surnames from Ysearch and Sorenson into one spreadsheet but haven't
updated this in several years. Maybe I'll work on that again. I have tons of
storage space online now with my new internet provider so I can set up an
online site devoted to this DNA. I don't really see any need to start a
separate project at FTDNA to accomplish this. I know there is a project for the
Breiffny clans but I don't know how large it is. The McGoverns have a large
project. O'Connors, O'Rourkes and O'Reillys might be underrepresented.
When I do this I tend to concentrate on the known chieftains, ie, those
with pedigrees and/or named in the Topographical Poems. At least we have some
idea of their alleged descent (Ui Briuin, Ui Fiachrach, Cenel Eoghain, etc.).
The great majority of Irish surnames matching M222 cannot be identified on
a tribal basis simply because they weren't chieftains and their pedigrees and
status were not recorded. Just as an example we have a known Donegal
surname (McGinley) which appears mostly in Donegal - they are M222+ - but we have
no idea if they are Cenel Conaill, Cenel Eoghain or something else. Some
Connacht surnames like O'Clery migrated into Donegal. The southern part of the
county bordered Leitrim and one might expect migration from there as well.
If anyone else has any ideas on the subject I'd be happy to hear about
them. I realize we're only discussing a sub-set of M222 here - yet if the TMRCA
estimates are correct (0 AD) then the common ancestor of most M222 is
probably not that distant from Nial and the Connachta. If John McEwan is correct
and the common ancestor lived c. 1500 BC. that's a different story.
John
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