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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1230441841

From: "David Wilson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DYS385a,b
Date: Sat, 27 Dec 2008 21:24:01 -0800
References: <2dff56a0812120756r506facafsabbf485d0bb1dfb0@mail.gmail.com><B5AF1C5DDA504CFB819953BDD9BC404D@Mercedes>
In-Reply-To: <B5AF1C5DDA504CFB819953BDD9BC404D@Mercedes>

I have wondered this myself. One would like to be able to assert that a
single individual with 11-12 at 385 was the ancestor of all individuals who
have those results today, but we need to be cautious. If you can find a
cluster of distinguishing markers (the more the better) that include
385b=12 and define a subcluster within the overall M222 group, then you
would have something to work with. But I have not yet seen such a cluster
myself. Also, remember that mutations go both directions. It is possible
that some 11-13 individuals today descend from an 11-12 individual who lived
two, four or eight centuries ago, and in one of whose descendants the modal
value re-established itself and prospered in succeeding generations.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, but I have seen too many of my own
notions and enthusiasms fail to play out as I expected. I'm just really
cautious these days.

David Wilson

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Richard B. Hare
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:54 AM
Subject: Re: [R-M222] DYS385a,b

I'd love to hear anything anyone knows about DYS 385 b as a 12. Is it a
mutation of DYS 385b to 12 from it's modality of 13? Is there any
significance to it? There are a measurable number of us so it may be more
than a random event.
Dick Hare

-----Original Message-----
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Colin Ferguson
Sent: Friday, December 12, 2008 10:57 AM
To: DNA-R1b1c7
Subject: [R-M222] DYS385a,b

In the Fergus(s)on DNA Project we have a cluster of 6 people of no
konwn genealogical relation wherein DYS385a,b=12,12; see

A searched YSearch, SMGF and the R-M222 Haplogroup project revealed
few instances DYS385a,b=12,12. This got me to wondering just how far
removed 12,12 is from the modal 11,13. On the face of it I would say a
genetic distance of 2 but being a palindromic marker I know that it
can be more complicated than that. How many ways can 11,13 mutate to

Related question: what is the modal Kittler test for R-M222?
Colin Ferguson
R1b1c7 Research and Links:

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