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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1229133337
From:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] L21
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 2008 20:55:37 EST
In a message dated 12/12/2008 4:19:29 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
I make it 52 generations for M222+ and 112 generations for L21+. Using 30
years as a generation, this makes them around 1560 years and 3360 years
resp.
That doesn't seem out of line to me.
I had a short discussion with Tim Desmond the other day. His DNA matches
the South Irish type II of Ken Knordtfedt, which Tim has associated with the
Eoghanachta of Munster in Ireland. His DNA matches the modal - and he tested
L21-. So far he said he only knows of one other Irish sample (a Kenny,
YSearch=Y34QR) who tested L21- (south Galway). He also said several others who
matched the modal are being tested now.
Tim's surname (Desmond) popped up in some recent discussions on L21 in the
GEN-DNA list where people were talking about a "Norman" surname testing L21
but no one was sure what the surname was. This surname may not be "Noman" at
all. The surname just means "the Munsterman" and the Eoghanachta pedigrees
give them an Irish descent.
Tim has a web site devoted to the South Irish type II (not updated recently).
_http://mysite.verizon.net/timdesmond/files/dna_southirish.htm_
(http://mysite.verizon.net/timdesmond/files/dna_southirish.htm)
The South Irish type II and South Irish type III were discussed in the
latest article by Trinity college. Using only their usual 12 markers they did not
see much of a modal in either cluster. They did mention though the the
surnames did not show the same degree of relatedness as found in the Ui Neill of
the north.
Nothing is really known about the Eoghanachta of Munster, except that
O'Rahilly regarded them as late comers to Ireland, finding no evidence of them in
Ptolemy's map of Ireland c. 150 AD. They are linked by pedigree to the South
Irish Type III, thought to represent the Dal Cais of Thomond (also in
Munster), but many historians question this link.
In "Early Irish History and Mythology" O'Rahilly stated the Eoghanachta and
the northern goidels (ie, Ui Neill) were both late comers to Ireland. He
never said so explicitly but it's difficult to avoid the assumption he thought
the two tribes were related. He said both were Q-Celtic tribes as opposed to
the dominant P-Celtic speaking tribes of Ptolemy's time. Then he attempted
to link both to a tribe in SE Gaul (Quariates), based on "evidence" he
declined to present.
Now we know the two tribes are not related thanks to DNA. The northern
goidels of O'Rahilly appear to be mainly R1b1c7 (Ui Neill, Connachta).
Hopefully we'll learn more about the L21 status of the South Irish II when
the additional tests come in for the samples matching the modal.
As mentioned previously, we have several L21+ tests in our Leinster modal
group, the most recognizable surnames of which are Kavanagh, Kinsella and
O'Byrne, the kings and chieftains of the Lagin in Leinster. The Lagin have been
linked by many historians to SW England (Cornwal and Devonshire) and/or
Armorica or Little Brittany in Gaul. The DNA is very strong in southern Ireland
(Leinster and Munster) but also found heavily in lowland Scotland. We also
have a few possible English and French matches.
Prior to Ptolemy's time though (150 AD) we know nothing about any tribe
names in Ireland except possibly the name Pretanic Isles for all of the British
Isles (a name which linguists associate with Cruithin or Picts) or Everni
(from Erainn).. If L21 originated in or around 2,000 BCE than history won't be
of much help.
John
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