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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1229013449


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] L21
Date: Thu, 11 Dec 2008 16:37:29 -0000
References: <d18.3784a9d5.366c7b18@aol.com> <000001c95922$24d21e40$6e765ac0$@com> <9656caf80812080841t1005498i9143f3ca083e1ae5@mail.gmail.com> <001601c95ad0$d61b71b0$82525510$@com><9656caf80812110820x16b5f7ebr2455a861fa7ff378@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <9656caf80812110820x16b5f7ebr2455a861fa7ff378@mail.gmail.com>


Hi Paul

I think I should re-phrase something.

It's probably better to say that you are 'less far from' (L21+,M222-) than
most of (L21+,M222+) rather than 'nearer to'. I did manage to find some L21+
haplotypes that you seem closer to than some M222+ haplotypes, but not many.
I'd be more convinced though if we could find some haplotypes that look like
M222+ but are SNP tested (L21+,M222-).

My own SNP results are due soon. Who knows?


Sandy





-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy
Sent: 11 December 2008 16:21
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] L21

Fascinating!

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 9:08 AM, Sandy Paterson <
> wrote:

> Hi Paul
>
> Out of 411 (l21+,M222+) haplotypes I've compared to 49 (L21+,M222-)
> haplotypes, you are ranked near the top (9th) in terms of 'relative
> closeness' to (L21+, M222-).
> Put differently, you seem far closer to (L21+,M222-) haplotypes than the
> bulk of M222+ people.
>
> This seems perfectly consistent with what you say below, but the full
> implications are not obvious to me.
>
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy
> Sent: 08 December 2008 16:42
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] L21
>
> Sandy,
> Very true!
>
> On DNA Forums, I responded to a user who is L21+ and M222-, and whose
> ancestry is from Wicklow/Wexford in the South East of the Ireland, yet he
> had most matches with the O'Rourkes, from the North West, and wondered if
> he
> was "Pre-M222", here (registration required):
> http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=5373
>
> You may on to something there, as regards a pre-M222+ haplotype.
>
> My first 12 markers are: 13 25 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29
>
> I am a GD=1 away from the Niall modal, because of my DYS391=10 value -
> which
> is somewhat common in Scotland.
>
> I come from County Laois in the South Midlands, and am not too far from
> Wexford. All my male line comes from Western Laois, the former Kingdom of
> Ossary, and like the Wicklow mountains - the home of the O'Tooles and
> Byrnes
> - was never colonized by Norman, Viking or English. A few years ago I
> noticed almost all my 12-marker matches were in North Western Ireland and
> Scotland, until the M222 test came along, I was unsure of why this was.
The
> funny thing is that I have over 20 12-marker matches with O'Reillys!! The
> were the Chieftains of the Kingdom of Breifne - Leitrim and Cavan and some
> of Sligo mostly:
>
> Info and map here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Breifne
>
> ...
> The O'Reillys later shared this area with the O'Rourkes - so it's funny
> that
> you have a lot of O'Rourke matches.
>
> Breifne was sandwiched between the Northern and Southern O'Neill, and the
> first kings of Breifne are as follows:
> 1. Echu Mugmedón, father to Brión, Fiachra, and Niall (of the Nine
> Hostages).
> 2. Brión: son of Echu Mugmedón and the ancestor of the O'Briuin Kings of
> Connacht.
> 3. Aodh Fionn mac Fergna: king of Breifne
>
> They later give rise to:
> Ó Ruairc - O'Rourke
> Ó Raghallaigh - O'Reilly
>
> So you may be on a lineage ancestral to the main M222 branch?!
> ...
>
> So he and I are related to the kingship of Breifne, but he is M222- and I
> am M222+, or maybe he is Pre-M222?
>
> Note that the first king of Breifne was Niall's father!
>
> Cheers,
> Paul
>
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:45 AM, Sandy Paterson <
>
> > wrote:
>
> > Seems to me that when the M222+ mutation first occurred, the mutation
> could
> > in no way be said to have caused kinship to suddenly cease, so the most
> > likely candidates for the origins of M222+ must be those
> family/clan/tribal
> > groupings that contain significant proportions of both (L21+, M222-) and
> > (L21+, M222+).
> >
> >
> > Sandy
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> > Sent: 07 December 2008 01:04
> > To:
> > Subject: Re: [R-M222] L21
> >
> > In a message dated 12/6/2008 12:26:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> > writes:
> >
> > If this is so, and my understanding that M222+ is a 'child' of L21+ is
> > correct, this would seem to imply that M222+ almost definitely arose in
> > Ireland, sprung from L21+.
> >
> >
> > They've been arguing on the GEN-DNA list for the last month about where
> > L21
> >
> > originated. Some claim Ireland; some claim the Celtic fringe of the
> > British
> > Isles in general; some say the continent. I don't think anyone knows
> for
> > sure but that doesn't stop the theorizing.
> >
> >
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > **************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
> > favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
> > (
> >
>
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> > 010)
> > R1b1c7 Research and Links:
> >
> > http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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