DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives
Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1228764061
From:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] L21
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2008 14:21:01 EST
Has anyone run any research on the Dunbar's in Ulster?
In a message dated 12/8/2008 1:15:27 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
Hi Paul
This does look interesting.
I've written some software that takes a haplotype and attempts to check
whether it is closer in GD terms to the O Cathain group on the Ulster
Heritage site than it is to M222+ project participants as a whole. I've set
up so that the software runs through the M222+ participants one by one, then
ranks them in terms of 'relative closeness' to O Cathain. It seems fairly
efficient in that the 7 who are in both the O Cathain group as well as the
M222+ group, are all ranked in the top quartile of the sorted results. In
fact 6/7 are ranked in the top 10 percentile.
I could easily change the software to check whether a given haplotype is
closer to (L21+,M222+) than it is to (L21+,M222-). Now it may be that no
such haplotypes exist, but by ranking the results in terms of 'relative
closeness', it may be able to identify those (L21+,M222-) haplotypes that
are closest to M222+, and who may therefore be possible candidates for being
ancestral to M222+.
The trick, I suppose, is to wait until a sufficiently large group of
(L21+,M222-) haplotypes have found their way onto a website. I don't think
that will take long - some such sites have already sprung up.
Sandy
-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of Paul Conroy
Sent: 08 December 2008 16:42
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] L21
Sandy,
Very true!
On DNA Forums, I responded to a user who is L21+ and M222-, and whose
ancestry is from Wicklow/Wexford in the South East of the Ireland, yet he
had most matches with the O'Rourkes, from the North West, and wondered if he
was "Pre-M222", here (registration required):
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?showtopic=5373
You may on to something there, as regards a pre-M222+ haplotype.
My first 12 markers are: 13 25 14 10 11 13 12 12 12 13 14 29
I am a GD=1 away from the Niall modal, because of my DYS391=10 value - which
is somewhat common in Scotland.
I come from County Laois in the South Midlands, and am not too far from
Wexford. All my male line comes from Western Laois, the former Kingdom of
Ossary, and like the Wicklow mountains - the home of the O'Tooles and Byrnes
- was never colonized by Norman, Viking or English. A few years ago I
noticed almost all my 12-marker matches were in North Western Ireland and
Scotland, until the M222 test came along, I was unsure of why this was. The
funny thing is that I have over 20 12-marker matches with O'Reillys!! The
were the Chieftains of the Kingdom of Breifne - Leitrim and Cavan and some
of Sligo mostly:
Info and map here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Breifne
...
The O'Reillys later shared this area with the O'Rourkes - so it's funny that
you have a lot of O'Rourke matches.
Breifne was sandwiched between the Northern and Southern O'Neill, and the
first kings of Breifne are as follows:
1. Echu Mugmedón, father to Brión, Fiachra, and Niall (of the Nine
Hostages).
2. Brión: son of Echu Mugmedón and the ancestor of the O'Briuin Kings of
Connacht.
3. Aodh Fionn mac Fergna: king of Breifne
They later give rise to:
Ó Ruairc - O'Rourke
Ó Raghallaigh - O'Reilly
So you may be on a lineage ancestral to the main M222 branch?!
...
So he and I are related to the kingship of Breifne, but he is M222- and I
am M222+, or maybe he is Pre-M222?
Note that the first king of Breifne was Niall's father!
Cheers,
Paul
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 5:45 AM, Sandy Paterson <
> wrote:
> Seems to me that when the M222+ mutation first occurred, the mutation
could
> in no way be said to have caused kinship to suddenly cease, so the most
> likely candidates for the origins of M222+ must be those
family/clan/tribal
> groupings that contain significant proportions of both (L21+, M222-) and
> (L21+, M222+).
>
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> Sent: 07 December 2008 01:04
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] L21
>
> In a message dated 12/6/2008 12:26:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> If this is so, and my understanding that M222+ is a 'child' of L21+ is
> correct, this would seem to imply that M222+ almost definitely arose in
> Ireland, sprung from L21+.
>
>
> They've been arguing on the GEN-DNA list for the last month about where
> L21
>
> originated. Some claim Ireland; some claim the Celtic fringe of the
> British
> Isles in general; some say the continent. I don't think anyone knows for
> sure but that doesn't stop the theorizing.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
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