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Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:07:44 EST
In a message dated 12/4/2008 10:09:34 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
John McLoughlin said that if the genealogies in O'Clery are correct,
every McLaughlin in Inishowen in the 17th century should have been descended
from a single son of Domhnall Mac Lochlainn. But should this really be so?
It seems reasonable to think that the larger and more powerful the clan, the
greater the proportion of members who are not patrilineal descendants of the
eponymous patriarch.
That's an interesting point of discussion. The O'Clery Book of Genealogies
contain any number of full genealogies for different Irish families,
including O'Donnells, O'Gallaghers, O'Dohertys, O'Boyles, McLaughlins and O'Neills.
These aren't just pedigrees but full blown genealogies showing the various
family branches as they existed in the late 1500s/early 1600s. In each case
the genealogies deduce every family from a single individual somewhere in the
family tree. Mostly they are very accurate in describing the branches. One
can trace the Doherty branches in English source documents of the 17th
century. In the case of the Dohertys their common ancestor is a man who lived in
about 1300 A.D. All other Dohertys since the surname first appeared are
ignored by the genealogies. If one takes them at face value then the other lines
must have gone extinct. I've always thought this might have been little more
than genealogical convenience on the part of those compiling the genealogies.
That's what the Irish scribes did with all pedigrees - link them to a
common ancestor.
<It seems reasonable to think that the larger and more powerful the clan, the
greater the proportion of members who are not patrilineal descendants of the
eponymous patriarch.
I've heard this suggested before. It could be true. There's an interesting
quote from Fynes Moryson's "Upublished Itinerary" (16th century).
"They have likewise, a ridiculous custom, that maryed women give Fathers to
their children, when they are at the point of death; Insomuch as they have a
pleasant tale, that a younger son hearing his mother give base Father's to
some of his children bretheren, besought her with teares to give him a good
father. But commonly they give them fathers of the Oneales, O'Donnels or such
great men, or at least those that ar most famous for licentious boldness. And
these bastard children every after follow these fathers, and thincking
themselves to descend of them, will be called swordsmen, and scorning hubandrye,
and mauall arts live only of rapine and spoyle."
I can't think of any Irish family this would be more likely to occur in than
the O'Neills of Ulster. What does the DNA tells us?
The Trinity study included 80 O'Neill DNA samples from all over Ireland. 30
of these O'Neills listed Ulster as place of origin. The counties mention
include Tyrone (14), Donegal (2), Londonderry (3), Armagh (3), Monaghan (2),
Antrim (2). The great majority of samples were in Tyrone followed by adjacent
counties, exactly where we might expect to find O'Neills descended from the
sept of Tyrone. Clannaboy (Antrim) seems under represented in the study.
A breakdown of the DNA follows:
8 R11bc7
19 R1b
3 other haplogroups (two I, one R1a).
Out of the 19 R1b there is one large group that is clearly closely related
to each other (13). These are what Ed O'Neill and I described as the main
group of O'Neills in our joint article. You can see the same group in the Excel
file I posted yesterday. They completely dominate all O'Neill DNA tested to
date on Ysearch. Their distinguishing characteristic is a 12-15 at DYS
385ab.
The next biggest group of O'Neills in the Trinity spreadsheet are R1b1c7
(8). Little can be said about the results since they are only 12 marker tests
but they seem fairly diverse.
The third group of R1b consists of 6 samples that do not match the main
group of O'Neills. There is nothing to set this cluster apart from the AMH at 12
markers. We can't tell if they are one large related group or just
singletons.
There is obviously plenty of evidence of NPEs of one kind or another in this
data. No O'Neill honorary chieftains have been tested to date so we're
working in the dark trying to figure out which may have been the "royal" line.
Ed O'Neill believes the "royal" line is to be found in the main large group of
non R1b1c7 O'Neills. Part of his reasoning is several McShane samples also
match the DNA and they are a surname commonly believed to arise from the
O'Neills. He also says he has some pedigrees linking DNA samples to the lines of
Tyrone and Clannaboy. These I haven't seen and know nothing about. Patrick
Guinness came up with a different interpretation. He believes the R1b1c7
O'Neills were the "royal" line and the R1b O'Neills were just camp followers,
probably Airgialla in origin. There are probably as many opinions as they're
are people looking at the data.
In general, I believe the heart of any family group is probably represented
by the largest DNA faction. I'm not talking about clans - just specific
family groups. Others claim just the opposite.
I can think of one possible scenario to account for part of what we're
seeing in O'Neill DNA.
Most agree the O'Neills should be R1b1c7 but a lot of them aren't. In fact
the largest proportion aren't. The two great branches of the O'Neills are
said to descend from two sons of Aodh 'the lazy youth" Ua Neill (d. 1177 AD).
The entire genealogical scheme of the O'Neills in O'Clery would have one
believe that every O'Neill in the late 1500s descended from Aodh 'the lazy
youth.' But there are annal entries for O'Neills that cannot be placed into this
line and it's possible some of them survived into the present day. So much
for the genealogies.
The main group of O'Neills in the Trinity study could be the "royal" line in
descent from Aodh 'the lazy youth'. But some kind of NPE happened in this
line, probably before the time of Aodh himself. The R1b1c7 O'Neills (a small
group) could be a remnant of the other O'Neills in the annals. The surname
O'Neill itself is first used for Domhnall 'of Armagh" Ua Neill, who died in
980 AD, long before the time of Aodh. The annalists began using Ua Neill as a
surname in the generation following the death of Domhnall 'of Armagh' and
there are lots of O'Neill entries in the annals during this time period. There
is no reason to think they all went extinct.
The smaller group of R1b O'Neills could be random NPEs, perhaps followers
who assumed the surname or whatever. The non matching haplogroup O'Neills need
no description. They could well be Norse.
I would feel more confident of this scenario if we had some chieftains to
test or some reliable pedigrees matched with DNA. I'm sure others on this list
can come up with alternative scenarios.
This O'Neill data also matches what I'm seeing in the Doherty clan project.
One large related R1b1c7 group and smaller amounts of non matching DNA. We
also have one large related R1b1c7 group in our McLaughlin project but here
we're handicapped by not having definite locations for most project members.
I could not attempt to give an estimate on non matching DNA based on what we
know now.
John
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