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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1228379299


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:28:19 -0000
References: <c8c.316ffdd5.36687e94@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <c8c.316ffdd5.36687e94@aol.com>


>
You tend to ignore M222+ if it makes up only a small proportion of the
whole
of a group. You seem happy if M222+ makes up the greater part of a group's
DNA, but if it makes up only a small part, you reason that M222+ couldn't
logically have been the original haplogroup of the group. (I'm using
haplogroup and sub-clade interchangeably).


That's perfectly true and I think it's a logical deduction.
>

Having set out in some detail why it is not a logical deduction, I don't
think there's anything further I can do.


>
The problem with the McDonalds R1b1c7 is I see no evidence of a valid
group. Just a bunch
of mostly unrelated surnames mixed in with McDonalds and a few McConnells,
no
geographical information for any of them, at least a few of the samples
actually came from Ireland. For all anyone knows there could be three or
four
possible unrelated McDonald septs scattered across Ireland and Scotland.
>

The McDonald website has been fixed. Go to

http://www.clan-donald-usa.org/cdusa/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_o
p=view_page&PAGE_id=15&MMN_position=16:16


It gives detail way beyond anything I've seen on any other site. Whereas I
share your bewilderment and frustration at the variety of names, if you
choose to ignore them, I don't think you'll get anywhere. If you choose to
accept them but throw up your hands and say it's too complicated, you won't
get anywhere either.


>
I find it strange that not a single Scottish clan is even close to being a
majority of R1b1c7. Contrast that to Ireland where any number of Irish
septs
are a majority R1b1c7.
>

I've already explained why this happens.

I must say I'm puzzled. You've responded to almost every e-mail I've posted
(which I appreciate), but you seem to have missed (or ignored) much of what
I've said, particularly about the impact of NPE's.

Maybe we should clear this up before continuing. Would you like me to give
you the dates and times of the specific e-mails to save you having to sift
through what's been said? I'll do so with pleasure if wish.


Sandy








-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 04 December 2008 00:30
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency

In a message dated 12/3/2008 3:29:38 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

You tend to ignore M222+ if it makes up only a small proportion of the
whole
of a group. You seem happy if M222+ makes up the greater part of a group's
DNA, but if it makes up only a small part, you reason that M222+ couldn't
logically have been the original haplogroup of the group. (I'm using
haplogroup and sub-clade interchangeably).


That's perfectly true and I think it's a logical deduction. The problem
with the McDonalds R1b1c7 is I see no evidence of a valid group. Just a
bunch
of mostly unrelated surnames mixed in with McDonalds and a few McConnells,
no
geographical information for any of them, at least a few of the samples
actually came from Ireland. For all anyone knows there could be three or
four
possible unrelated McDonald septs scattered across Ireland and Scotland.

The O'Neills of Ireland are a different case. Here we have a very small
number of R1b1c7 but all are of the same surname and all are from Ulster,
most
from countys formerly controlled by the O'Neills. But the largest group of

all are not R1b1c7. In this case I have said repeatedly I do not know
which
are the main line of "royal" O'Neills. Logic also dictates that the R1b1c7

O'Neills might be the "original" group since every other Ui Neill Irish
clan
is R1b1c7. But I don't know anything for sure. However in this case we
also
have pedigrees to go on. In the case of the McDonalds we have nothing -
except a refuted Colla Uais Airgialla pedigree and a general Dal Riata
pedigree,
neither of which tie into R1b1c7 roots.

There is a guy out there who calls himself the O Cathain. He's got a
nice
long pedigree from O'Hart which claims some Ulster O Cathains went to
various places in Ireland including co. Clare in Thomond. But his DNA does
not
match the R1b1c7 O Cathains. No problem. Now he says his DNA represents
the
true line of the "royal" O Cathains - that the R1b1c7 O Cathains are clan
followers - and every bit of true O Cathain DNA was killed off except for
his
line. That's a fine bit of rationalization to explain away mismatching DNA.
which
exactly matches what it should - the Irish Type III "Thomond" DNA.

I've seen this argument used too often to support invalid DNA matches and

pedigrees.

When I see haplogroups like R1b1c7 strewn haphazardly in different surnames

and locations and most of the DNA in those groups does not match my first
inclination is to look for a different origin for the R1b1c7 surnames.
Maybe
these are not Argyllshire or western Isles McDonalds. Maybe they came from

somewhere else and had no connection at all to the other McDonalds. Maybe
a few
strays simply assumed the surname, something you can never rule out in
Scotland.

I find it strange that not a single Scottish clan is even close to being a
majority of R1b1c7. Contrast that to Ireland where any number of Irish
septs
are a majority R1b1c7. Instead the R1b1c7 in Scotland is scattered broadly

in a huge number of different surnames with no known links between them,
from
the western Isles through lowland Scotland and down into northern England.

And everywhere they are just a small proportion of the population. What it

looks like to me is R1b1c7 in Scotland are one of two things: random
strays
from Ireland or the scattered remnants of some early tribe dispersed to the

four winds by waves of Anglo-Saxon, Viking and Norman conquests.


John





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