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Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 19:53:35 EST
I searched Ysearch for O'Neills.
I found 43 O'Neill listings (variants, Neel/Neal).
The main group of O'Neills in Ysearch (19) match up with the O'Neills in the
Trinity study. They are not R1b1c7 - the easiest way to spot them is from
the 12-15 or 11-15 at DYS 385ab. Ed O'Neill of the O'Neill DNA project has
tons of matches to this DNA in his project if anyone wants to pursue the
matter. He is now convinced this DNA represents the line of the "royal" O'Neills
of Ulster. He has some reasons for this, including the fact that several
McShanes match the DNA. The last time we talked he said he had some paper trails
that linked the DNA to the O'Neills of Tyrone and Clannaboy. I do not know
the details of this but you can ask him about it if interested.
Another group of O'Neills (9) are not R1b1c7 but do not match this large
group of O'Neills. There were other minor O'Neill septs scattered around
Ireland. The O'Neills of Ulster were not the only O'Neills of Ireland.
There are four I haplogroup O'Neills from Ireland, one J2.
Another 5 Neels (that specific spelling) are not R1b1c7.
Lastly, there are 5 R1b1c7 O'Neills, two of which are spelled Neel.
The available R1b1c7 O'Neill samples on Ysearch aren't much. Two are just
12 marker tests; one is 25 markers.
A4VSA O'Neill Ireland
U3R4G O'Neill Ireland
V855Q O'Neill Ulster, Ireland
2WEAD Neel Ulster, Ireland
F2V9A Neel Ireland
The Ysearch results look very much like the results from the 80 sample
Trinity study. Lots of non R1b1c7 O'Neills in one large group in Ulster and a
handful of R1b1c7 O'Neills. One of the Neel samples (2WEAD) is a dead ringer
for McLaughlin DNA.
Ed O'Neill believes the line of the "royal" O'Neills are not R1b1c7 and that
some kind of NPE occurred in the line. I agree with him but am not sure yet
who the "royal" line were.
The traditional genealogies of the O'Neills of Ulster has them descend from
one common ancestor, Aedh 'the lazy youth" Ua Neill, slain in 1177 AD. He
had two sons, Neill ruadh and Aodh dubh, from whom descend the two great
branches of Tyrone and Clannaboy. Aodh 'the lazy youth' is said to be some six
generations in descent from Aodh Athlaman, also reputed to be the father of
Anradan.
But I have never been convinced the genealogies are perfectly accurate.
There were other O'Neills listed in the annals who did not belong to this
line, including some in the line of Aedh 'of Craebh Tulcha', the King of Aileach,
who d. 1003 AD. If the O'Neill genealogies are true then these other
O'Neill lines all must have gone extinct. It's possible some survived outside of
the "royal" line. Aedh 'of Craebh Tulcha' was a cousin of Flaithbertach an
Trostain, the father of Aodh Athlaman. According to the pedigrees and annals
Flaithbertach an trostain had several sons, some of whom appear in the annals.
Did they all go extinct too?
You have a daunting task in trying to connect Anradan and the Argyllshire
clans to this line of O'Neills. There isn't much R1b1c7 O'Neill DNA to be
found. And journeying down the family tree will take you first to the
MacLochlainns of Tirconnell. Here we have a lot of R1b1c7. The O Cathains are even
further back. More R1b1c7.
John
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