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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1228296541


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 09:29:01 -0000
References: <c12.454e605b.36673ce8@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <c12.454e605b.36673ce8@aol.com>


>
Isn't that exactly what we've been doing?
>

Almost, but not quite.

You tend to ignore M222+ if it makes up only a small proportion of the whole
of a group. You seem happy if M222+ makes up the greater part of a group's
DNA, but if it makes up only a small part, you reason that M222+ couldn't
logically have been the original haplogroup of the group. (I'm using
haplogroup and sub-clade interchangeably).

I've used mathematics (you call it statistics) to illustrate that NPE's can
cause the original haplogroup to be swamped. I think that's the difference.


>
And whom do you find as the closest relatives by pedigree to the Anradan
kindred? O'Neills and McLaughlins. Not just any McLaughlins but
specifically
McLaughlins from Donegal and the vicinity. The McLaughlins arose as an
identifiable family in the 1050 AD. range with Ardgar MacLochlainn, the son
of
Lochlan, possibly the Lochlan who d. 1023, called the King of Inishowen and
Magh
Ith. If the pedigrees in O'Clery are correct every McLaughlin living in
Inishowen in the 17th century should have been descended from a single son
of
Domhnall MacLochlainn, slain 1241 AD. They have a distinctive family modal
as
do many other R1b1c7 families.

The O Cathains were among the next closest relatives to the O'Neills and
McLaughlins. But the pedigrees are not completely trustworthy for any of
these
families. Another close relative were the Clan Duibh Enaigh - a clan name
that is equivalent to the surname Devanny. There is at least one Devanny
sample on Ysearch that's a dead ringer for McLaughlin DNA. But no one
really
knows if the clan name Duibh Enaigh spawned the surname Devanny. The O
Cathains
arose at the same time as the Muinter Birn - a well known Cenel Eoghain
tribe
in history - but finding a modern surname in descent from this tribe is
problematical.
>

Thanks. I'll take that as a qualified 'Yes'.

>
If you're serious about pursuing this I would begin with a thorough study
of
all the Cenel Eoghain DNA you can find on Ysearch, especially O'Neill DNA.
>

You once sent me a bunch of O'Neil haplotypes from the Trinity study,
including those that seemed to be M222+. I think I'll have a closer look at
those as a start.



Sandy





-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 03 December 2008 01:38
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency

In a message dated 12/2/2008 4:55:40 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:
It would be far more convincing to take whatever M222+ is present in a
group
and to use that to check the plausibility of a pedigree claim by comparing
it to the M222+ DNA of the grouping from whom descent is claimed.
Isn't that exactly what we've been doing?

And whom do you find as the closest relatives by pedigree to the Anradan
kindred? O'Neills and McLaughlins. Not just any McLaughlins but
specifically
McLaughlins from Donegal and the vicinity. The McLaughlins arose as an
identifiable family in the 1050 AD. range with Ardgar MacLochlainn, the son
of
Lochlan, possibly the Lochlan who d. 1023, called the King of Inishowen and
Magh
Ith. If the pedigrees in O'Clery are correct every McLaughlin living in
Inishowen in the 17th century should have been descended from a single son
of
Domhnall MacLochlainn, slain 1241 AD. They have a distinctive family modal
as
do many other R1b1c7 families.

The O Cathains were among the next closest relatives to the O'Neills and
McLaughlins. But the pedigrees are not completely trustworthy for any of
these
families. Another close relative were the Clan Duibh Enaigh - a clan name
that is equivalent to the surname Devanny. There is at least one Devanny
sample on Ysearch that's a dead ringer for McLaughlin DNA. But no one
really
knows if the clan name Duibh Enaigh spawned the surname Devanny. The O
Cathains
arose at the same time as the Muinter Birn - a well known Cenel Eoghain
tribe
in history - but finding a modern surname in descent from this tribe is
problematical.

How close the McLaughlins and O Cathains are depends on which pedigree for
the McLaughlins you want to believe. There are two. So far I haven't seen

any O Cathain DNA with the typical McLaughlin modal markers even though one

version of the pedigree has them less than 100 years apart in descent.

If you want to descend further down the family tree you'll find the
O'Donnellys and O'Devlins of Fer Droma Lighen, the O'Brolchains of
Inishowen (Bradley
in the Trinity spreadsheet), Mac Cathmaoil of Tyrone (MacCawell, Campbell).

Even further down are surnames like O Quinn and O Hogan.

There are relatives aplenty to chose from. But finding representative
samples is difficult.

The O'Neills, as you know, are a mystery themselves. These would be the
absolutely closest relatives to the Anradan kindred through their shared
ancestors, Flaitbhertach an trostain and Aodh Athlaman (d. 1033). But try
finding
R1b1c7 O'Neill samples. There aren't many, although there are a few
Neal/Neel samples that do match the McLaughlin modal. The main group of
O'Neills in
Ulster were not R1b1c7.

I haven't seen anything in DNA for the few surname samples available for
these Cenel Eoghain septs that links them together as "related" as stated
in the
pedigrees. Certainly nothing to distinguish Cenel Eoghain from Cenel
Conaill or from any of the other reputed tribes in descent from Nial.
Mostly they
seem to be R1b1c7 but beyond that I can't say anything.

If you're serious about pursuing this I would begin with a thorough study
of
all the Cenel Eoghain DNA you can find on Ysearch, especially O'Neill DNA.



John

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