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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1228232306


From: John <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 06:38:26 -0900
References: <d59.32d05d29.3665f5ec@aol.com><000101c9546d$cb56c680$62045380$@com><001101c9547d$fdf81930$f9e84b90$@com>
In-Reply-To: <001101c9547d$fdf81930$f9e84b90$@com>


I second that opinion

Be what you is, not what you
aint, 'cause if you ain't what
you is, you is what you ain't.
- Luther D. Price

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 4:00 AM
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency


> >
> History suggests that Scots clans seldom agree on anything.
>>
>
> The one exception that I can think of is that they believe their whiskey
> is
> superior to Irish whiskey.
>
> I disagree completely. Bushmills makes a blend called Black Bush that is
> in
> my opinion superior to anything my Scots brethren are capable of
> producing.
> As for what passes as whisky in the USA, I think silence is appropriate.
>
>
> Sandy
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of Sandy Paterson
> Sent: 02 December 2008 11:05
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
>
>>
> I think the McDonald clan will acknowledge that their linkage of the
> Colla
> Uais modal with the Scottish Dal Riata is a mistake. What that is based
> on
> is
> an unfortunate error in old Clan McDonald histories that state that Colla
> Uais was the founder of the Scottish Dal Riata.
>>
>
> Chuckle. History suggests that Scots clans seldom agree on anything. True
> to
> form, some McDonalds seem to agree with what you've said and some don't.
> I've gone through their website from start to finish at least 3 times and
> I'll probably do so many times more. I do agree with you that there is a
> goodly bit of thoughtful uncertainty though.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> [mailto:] On Behalf Of
> Sent: 02 December 2008 02:23
> To:
> Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
>
> In a message dated 12/1/2008 4:48:51 A.M. Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> All you can validly claim to know about Somerled's DNA is that the
> majority
> of his offspring are now R1a. Somerled's haplogroup isn't known. What I'm
> saying is that you cannot dismiss the possibility that Somerled was
> R1b1c7,
> due to the effect of NPE's.
>
>
> I'll respond piece by piece as well.
>
> I think Bryan Sykes would disagree with you. He's the one who made the
> logical deduction that since several different chieftains of the
> McDonalds
> (McDougals, McAllisters, McDonalds) all carry the same R1a DNA then it
> represents
> the DNA of Somerled, the historical founder. Prior to Somerled nothing
> is
> known for sure but the line is easily traceable afterwards in the
> Chronicles of
> Mann and other sources.
>
> The traditional pedigree of the McDonalds has them descend from Colla
> Uais,
>
> one of the probably mythical founders of the Irish Airgialla. Sellar
> argued
> that the pedigree, which all authorities acknowledge is too short by
> multiple
> generations to be historically accurate, is just a "pointer" pedigree to
> the
> northern Ui Meicc Carthainn of the Irish Airgialla. His theory was
> widely
> accepted until DNA testing came along. Remember the McDonald clan's
> Colla
> Uais modal of a few years ago? They thought that represented the DNA
> signature
> of the Dal Riata clans, of whom the McDonald's considered themselves one.
> Their Colla Uais modal was just a variant of John McEwan's and Ken
> Knordfedt's
> Scot modal, the most common DNA signature in Scotland, found heavily in
> Argyllshire and western Scotland. I would submit to you that if any DNA
> signature
> represents the pre-Somerled era DNA of western Scotland it would be this,
> not R1b1c7.
>
> I think the McDonald clan will acknowledge that their linkage of the
> Colla
> Uais modal with the Scottish Dal Riata is a mistake. What that is based
> on
> is
> an unfortunate error in old Clan McDonald histories that state that Colla
> Uais was the founder of the Scottish Dal Riata.
>
> <Yes, that is a problem. I think Black gives some 30+ variants of
> MacEwan,
> including MCain and MacEwing. So perhaps you should expand your Anradan
> Surname list.
>
>
> The McEwans of Scotland are an old clan. That they once existed as a
> recognizable Scottish clan is attested to by the quote from Skene which
> accompanies
> their pedigree in the Gaelic MS. 1467.
>
> Note(7): "On a rocky point on the coast of Lochfine, about a mile
> below the church of Kilfinan, is to be seen the vestige of a
> building called Caisteal mhic Eoghuin or M'Ewen's castle. This
> M'Ewen was the chief of a clan and proprietor of Otter."-
> Stat. Acct. vol. 14, p. 259. From the genealogy, this tribe
> seems to have been a branch of the clan Lauchlan.
>
>
> But no one seems to know what happened to them. They disappear from
> history
> as a recognizable clan at some point. They may have been dispersed or
> gone
>
> extinct for all we know. With the multiple origin of surnames how on
> earth
>
> can anyone find a modern day MacEwan and claim that he is descended from
> the
> McEwan's of Otter?
>
> For me that's one of the huge problems of attempting to link surnames to
> known clans. You almost have to go into the old territory itself to get
> DNA
> samples with definite locations, from people whose ancestors have lived
> there as
> long as they can remember. If you want to get a handle on Maclachlan of
> Argyllshire DNA go to Argyllshire for your samples, not Edinburgh or
> Galloway.
> If you want to find Maclochlainn of Donegal go to Donegal.
>
> We've attempted to do this in our McLaughlin DNA project We have
> published
>
> articles in several places trying to recruit Maclachlans still living in
> Argyllshire, with almost no success. The few that have responded with
> known
> locations in Scotland from genealogy are not R1b1c7. Some are close to
> the
> Scots
> modals but don't match it exactly. The one Maclachlan DNA sample we have
> who says his ancestors came from Argyllshire is not R1b1c7. Another just
> north
> in the Ardnamurchan peninsula is not R1b1c7. Another from the vicinity
> of
>
> Edinburgh is not R1b1c7.
>
> My statement that R1b1c7 is found more often in lowland Scotland is based
> on
> a survey of Scottish R1b1c7 surnames in the online surname profiler. I
> took
> the three heaviest concentrations of each surname in my spreadsheets from
> Ysearch and did a breakdown of locations. The two largest locations were
> in
> lowland Scotland and northern England. Argyllshire by contrast was
> fairly
> low
> in R1b1c7. So were the highlands and extreme north of Scotland.
> Galloway
> was one of the heaviest concentrations. David Wilson has several times
> made a
> similar statement, that R1b1c7 is more common in the lowlands of
> Scotland.
>
> Perhaps he can explain what led him to that statement.
>
> In Ireland we often see large concentrations of a given surname in
> certain
> counties or adjacent counties. Mostly these follow the old territorial
> locations for an Irish sept. If you look at the Griffith's Valuations
> for
> the
> surnames Doherty or McLaughlin you'll find by far the largest
> concentration
> of
> both surnames occurs in Donegal, Tyrone and Londonderry, The points of
> heaviest concentration can be astounding. There are something like 2,000
> Dohertys
> listed in the Griffith's in Donegal alone; the next highest totals appear
> in
> adjacent Tyrone and Londonderry (in the range of 800).. After that the
> totals fall off the table. You might find 300 in Mayo, 20 in Wicklow, 10
> in
> Cork,40 in Antrim.
>
> What that tells me is that very heavy concentrations of a given surname
> =
>
> origins. You could have two or three different hotspots for a surname.
> Maybe more. That might show multiple origins. I've seen the same thing
> play out
> in ordinary English surnames that often appear in heavy concentrations in
> just a few counties in a certain location in England. I'll warrant you
> could do
> the same thing for a lot of Irish surnames like McCarthy, O'Brien,
> O'Sullivan, Kavanagh and you'd see the same thing.
>
> It's not proof of anything.
>
> And no, I did not take population density into account in the above
> surname
>
> analysis.
>
> <My approach in trying to figure out the plausibility of a pedigree claim
> involving R1b1c7 would be to consider only the R1b1c7 DNA of the people
> grouping and to compare it to other R1b1c7 groupings. I simply cannot see
> the point in even considering other haplogroups within the same people
> grouping.
>
> Is this a reference to the non matching haplogroups found among the
> Dohertys? If so it's an example of NPEs, in this case, probably of
> unrelated
> strangers absorbed into the clan, perhaps long before the adoption of
> surnames.
> What I find interesting about this is the high percentage of related
> Dohertys
> and the relatively small percentage of non related clan members.
>
> <My whole point is that the assumption of a continuous passing down of
> DNA
> from father to son is flawed, and implies a gross underestimation of the
> impact of NPE's.
>
>
> I understand this is where you're coming from. I don't think anyone ever
> has assumed a "continuous passing down of DNA from father to son" in
> every
> case. The genetic community has always been aware of NPEs. I've seen
> estimates
> on the GEN-DNA list of about 10%. Some claim it's higher. What I do is
> look at the main body of the clan surnames, not at the exceptions. If
> 68%
> of
> all Dohertys tested match and the rest were NPEs (that's debatable, given
> the
> multiple origins of surnames) what would that tell you about the matching
> Dohertys?
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> **************Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW
> AOL.com.
> (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000
> 002)
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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>
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>
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