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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1228215279


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 10:54:39 -0000
References: <d59.32d05d29.3665f5ec@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <d59.32d05d29.3665f5ec@aol.com>


Hi John

>
The traditional pedigree of the McDonalds has them descend from Colla Uais,

one of the probably mythical founders of the Irish Airgialla. Sellar
argued
that the pedigree, which all authorities acknowledge is too short by
multiple
generations to be historically accurate, is just a "pointer" pedigree to
the
northern Ui Meicc Carthainn of the Irish Airgialla. His theory was widely
accepted until DNA testing came along. Remember the McDonald clan's Colla
Uais modal of a few years ago? They thought that represented the DNA
signature
of the Dal Riata clans, of whom the McDonald's considered themselves one.
Their Colla Uais modal was just a variant of John McEwan's and Ken
Knordfedt's
Scot modal, the most common DNA signature in Scotland, found heavily in
Argyllshire and western Scotland. I would submit to you that if any DNA
signature
represents the pre-Somerled era DNA of western Scotland it would be this,
not R1b1c7.
>


Having built my own model for estimating haplogroup 'ages' and having
reproduced the results of the variance method used inter alia by Ken
Nordfedt, I have to say that it is not even possible to work out the
starting haplotype of a given set of haplotypes such as M22+ with
confidence. So any claim that this or that haplotype represents the past is
simply a guess. A methodically thought out guess, based on available
evidence, but a guess nevertheless.

I also repeat that I have not claimed that the Dalriadans were M222+, merely
that dismissing that possibility on the grounds that the current majority of
DNA of a particular
grouping is not M222+, or that four or ten or whatever number of the current
chiefs are or are not M222+ is logically flawed.

It would be far more convincing to take whatever M222+ is present in a group
and to use that to check the plausibility of a pedigree claim by comparing
it to the M222+ DNA of the grouping from whom descent is claimed.


Sandy





-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 02 December 2008 02:23
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency

In a message dated 12/1/2008 4:48:51 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

All you can validly claim to know about Somerled's DNA is that the majority
of his offspring are now R1a. Somerled's haplogroup isn't known. What I'm
saying is that you cannot dismiss the possibility that Somerled was R1b1c7,
due to the effect of NPE's.


I'll respond piece by piece as well.

I think Bryan Sykes would disagree with you. He's the one who made the
logical deduction that since several different chieftains of the McDonalds
(McDougals, McAllisters, McDonalds) all carry the same R1a DNA then it
represents
the DNA of Somerled, the historical founder. Prior to Somerled nothing is
known for sure but the line is easily traceable afterwards in the
Chronicles of
Mann and other sources.

The traditional pedigree of the McDonalds has them descend from Colla Uais,

one of the probably mythical founders of the Irish Airgialla. Sellar
argued
that the pedigree, which all authorities acknowledge is too short by
multiple
generations to be historically accurate, is just a "pointer" pedigree to
the
northern Ui Meicc Carthainn of the Irish Airgialla. His theory was widely
accepted until DNA testing came along. Remember the McDonald clan's Colla
Uais modal of a few years ago? They thought that represented the DNA
signature
of the Dal Riata clans, of whom the McDonald's considered themselves one.
Their Colla Uais modal was just a variant of John McEwan's and Ken
Knordfedt's
Scot modal, the most common DNA signature in Scotland, found heavily in
Argyllshire and western Scotland. I would submit to you that if any DNA
signature
represents the pre-Somerled era DNA of western Scotland it would be this,
not R1b1c7.

I think the McDonald clan will acknowledge that their linkage of the Colla
Uais modal with the Scottish Dal Riata is a mistake. What that is based on
is
an unfortunate error in old Clan McDonald histories that state that Colla
Uais was the founder of the Scottish Dal Riata.

<Yes, that is a problem. I think Black gives some 30+ variants of MacEwan,
including MCain and MacEwing. So perhaps you should expand your Anradan
Surname list.


The McEwans of Scotland are an old clan. That they once existed as a
recognizable Scottish clan is attested to by the quote from Skene which
accompanies
their pedigree in the Gaelic MS. 1467.

Note(7): "On a rocky point on the coast of Lochfine, about a mile
below the church of Kilfinan, is to be seen the vestige of a
building called Caisteal mhic Eoghuin or M'Ewen's castle. This
M'Ewen was the chief of a clan and proprietor of Otter."-
Stat. Acct. vol. 14, p. 259. From the genealogy, this tribe
seems to have been a branch of the clan Lauchlan.


But no one seems to know what happened to them. They disappear from
history
as a recognizable clan at some point. They may have been dispersed or gone

extinct for all we know. With the multiple origin of surnames how on earth

can anyone find a modern day MacEwan and claim that he is descended from
the
McEwan's of Otter?

For me that's one of the huge problems of attempting to link surnames to
known clans. You almost have to go into the old territory itself to get
DNA
samples with definite locations, from people whose ancestors have lived
there as
long as they can remember. If you want to get a handle on Maclachlan of
Argyllshire DNA go to Argyllshire for your samples, not Edinburgh or
Galloway.
If you want to find Maclochlainn of Donegal go to Donegal.

We've attempted to do this in our McLaughlin DNA project We have published

articles in several places trying to recruit Maclachlans still living in
Argyllshire, with almost no success. The few that have responded with
known
locations in Scotland from genealogy are not R1b1c7. Some are close to the
Scots
modals but don't match it exactly. The one Maclachlan DNA sample we have
who says his ancestors came from Argyllshire is not R1b1c7. Another just
north
in the Ardnamurchan peninsula is not R1b1c7. Another from the vicinity of

Edinburgh is not R1b1c7.

My statement that R1b1c7 is found more often in lowland Scotland is based
on
a survey of Scottish R1b1c7 surnames in the online surname profiler. I
took
the three heaviest concentrations of each surname in my spreadsheets from
Ysearch and did a breakdown of locations. The two largest locations were
in
lowland Scotland and northern England. Argyllshire by contrast was fairly
low
in R1b1c7. So were the highlands and extreme north of Scotland. Galloway
was one of the heaviest concentrations. David Wilson has several times
made a
similar statement, that R1b1c7 is more common in the lowlands of Scotland.

Perhaps he can explain what led him to that statement.

In Ireland we often see large concentrations of a given surname in certain
counties or adjacent counties. Mostly these follow the old territorial
locations for an Irish sept. If you look at the Griffith's Valuations for
the
surnames Doherty or McLaughlin you'll find by far the largest concentration
of
both surnames occurs in Donegal, Tyrone and Londonderry, The points of
heaviest concentration can be astounding. There are something like 2,000
Dohertys
listed in the Griffith's in Donegal alone; the next highest totals appear
in
adjacent Tyrone and Londonderry (in the range of 800).. After that the
totals fall off the table. You might find 300 in Mayo, 20 in Wicklow, 10
in
Cork,40 in Antrim.

What that tells me is that very heavy concentrations of a given surname =

origins. You could have two or three different hotspots for a surname.
Maybe more. That might show multiple origins. I've seen the same thing
play out
in ordinary English surnames that often appear in heavy concentrations in
just a few counties in a certain location in England. I'll warrant you
could do
the same thing for a lot of Irish surnames like McCarthy, O'Brien,
O'Sullivan, Kavanagh and you'd see the same thing.

It's not proof of anything.

And no, I did not take population density into account in the above surname

analysis.

<My approach in trying to figure out the plausibility of a pedigree claim
involving R1b1c7 would be to consider only the R1b1c7 DNA of the people
grouping and to compare it to other R1b1c7 groupings. I simply cannot see
the point in even considering other haplogroups within the same people
grouping.

Is this a reference to the non matching haplogroups found among the
Dohertys? If so it's an example of NPEs, in this case, probably of
unrelated
strangers absorbed into the clan, perhaps long before the adoption of
surnames.
What I find interesting about this is the high percentage of related
Dohertys
and the relatively small percentage of non related clan members.

<My whole point is that the assumption of a continuous passing down of DNA
from father to son is flawed, and implies a gross underestimation of the
impact of NPE's.


I understand this is where you're coming from. I don't think anyone ever
has assumed a "continuous passing down of DNA from father to son" in every
case. The genetic community has always been aware of NPEs. I've seen
estimates
on the GEN-DNA list of about 10%. Some claim it's higher. What I do is
look at the main body of the clan surnames, not at the exceptions. If 68%
of
all Dohertys tested match and the rest were NPEs (that's debatable, given
the
multiple origins of surnames) what would that tell you about the matching
Dohertys?


John









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