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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1228197635


From: John McLaughlin <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 00:00:35 -0600
References: <cbf.2c69bfe0.3664a0aa@aol.com><000001c953a2$558f45b0$00add110$@com>
In-Reply-To: <000001c953a2$558f45b0$00add110$@com>


<The best is to read what they say on their website. Their admission
criteria are by far the most detailed I've seen on any site. I recall
reading for example that only Dunleavy's from (such and such a place)
are part of the McDonald Clan and that Dunleavy's from (elsewhere) are
not. Unfortunately their Home Page is inoperative at the moment so I
can't give you the link but I'll do so when it's up and running again.


I found their website with no problems. This is what they have to say
about the R1b1c7 contingent in their DNA project.

Haplogroup R1b - Green subgroup

"The group below is centered geographically in northwestern Ireland. It
is always referred to as the 'Irish' or 'Niall' group. Clan Donalds with
this genetic signature may be descendants of Colla Uais, descendants of
the O'Neill, or O'Donnell kindreds with whom we regularly served in
Irish military operations, the O'Cahans from the Dowry of fighting men
provided to Angus Og upon his marriage to the O'Cahan's daughter or
descendants of Colla Menn from whom Gillebride sought assistants to
recover his lands from the Norse."

also

"The R1b green "Northwest Irish" area contains the haplotype of Niall of
the Nine Hostages, though none of our participants are known to be in
his male line."

There's a lot of guesswork in this statement (but what else can you
do?). "Descendants of Colla Uais" is a reference to the fact that the
three Collas were said to be cousins of Nial 'of the Nine Hostages.'
The same applies to the later reference to "Colla Meann." But the Irish
descendants of the three Collas are not R1b1c7.

There are references in the Irish annals to McDonalds hosting with
the O'Donnells of Donegal. One O'Donnell chieftain about 1300 was
fostered in Scotland and married first a MacSweeney and secondly a
McDonald. McDonalds were also settled in Tyrone as gallowglasses to the
O'Neills. It was probably this O'Donnell connection with Scotland that
brought the MacSweeneys to Ireland a century later. And of course they
repeat the tale of an O Cathain bride and her retinue from the territory
of O Cathain. It appears in both the Red Book of Clanranald and in Hugh
McDonalds 17th century history. There may be some truth to that.

Any of this is possible with the exception of the Colla bit. I think
that's been repudiated by DNA.

I looked up all the R1b1c7 McDonalds I could find with Ysearch ID's on
this site. Almost none of them knew where their ancestors lived. Some
just said Scotland. Most just knew their ancestors were in the U.S.
One said Paisley, Scotland. Another Inverness-shire. Paisley is in
Renfrewshire (central lowlands). I see nothing in any of these samples
that can be used as a verification of descent from a certain territory
in Scotland.

The McDonalds pretty clearly label one large group of tests "Dal Riata."

Haplogroup R1b - Red subgroup

"Descendants of the kindred of the Dalriadic royal house in Scotland lie
within in this group. However, only a fraction of people in the group
are expected to be descendants of the royal house; the group is simply
too large and diverse. Fergus, Angus, and Lorne, the sons of Erc, are
descended per Irish and Scottish history from Cairbre Riada, king of
Irish Dalriada. Cairbre Riada was descended from Conor II High King of
Ireland and Sarad, daughter of Conn of the Hundred Battles. Irish
history indicates that Cairbre had led his followers from Munster to
Antrim. This kindred is traditionally considered to be of Erainn
descent. Reverends Archibald and Angus MacDonald appear to have erred in
placing Colla Uais in this line of descent."

This is nothing more than the Scot modal previously discussed. Since
the prevailing theory is the Scots of the Scottish Dal Riata migrated
there from Ireland I have to assume the Clan McDonald believes the
original DNA of Dal Riata was not R1b1c7 but Scot modal. Before that
presumably only Picts lived in the territory.

It's been a while since I looked over most Scottish DNA projects but I
do remember Mark McDonald arguing with the Campbells that their modal
matched his Colla Uais modal. And I think the McGregors thought they
matched the same modal as well.

This simply confirms my general impression that the major Scottish
clans thought the Scots modal represented the original Dal Riata DNA
signature of western Scotland.


John








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