DNA-R1B1C7-L Archives

Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-12 > 1228128502


From: "Sandy Paterson" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 10:48:22 -0000
References: <cbf.2c69bfe0.3664a0aa@aol.com>
In-Reply-To: <cbf.2c69bfe0.3664a0aa@aol.com>


Wow.

I'm sure you'll find it acceptable if I answer you piece by piece.

1. How do we know which McDonalds they are?

The best is to read what they say on their website. Their admission criteria
are by far the most detailed I've seen on any site. I recall reading for
example that only Dunleavy's from (such and such a place) are part of the
McDonald Clan and that Dunleavy's from (elsewhere) are not. Unfortunately
their Home Page is inoperative at the moment so I can't give you the link
but I'll do so when it's up and running again.

But I agree that this is important.

My approach in trying to figure out the plausibility of a pedigree claim
involving R1b1c7 would be to consider only the R1b1c7 DNA of the people
grouping and to compare it to other R1b1c7 groupings. I simply cannot see
the point in even considering other haplogroups within the same people
grouping.


2. Secondly, why do we assume that all McDonalds in Scotland are connected
to
the Argyllshire/western Isles McDonalds?

We don't and I can't see what leads you to that conclusion.


3. Third, there are several possibilities for a fairly late introduction of

R1b1c7 into western Scotland.

Agreed. In an ideal world, we'd have to examine all such possibilities.


4. If the original DNA of Dal Riata was R1b1c7 we might expect to find
R1b1c7
dominant in the areas once controlled in NE Ulster by the Ulaidh, Dal
Fiatach
or Dal Riata. That is their origin story (ie, the sons of Erc of the Irish

Dal Riata founding the Dal Riata of Scotland). Yet in Ireland R1b1c7 is
not
strong in NE Ulster. In fact according to the DNA gradient map of Trinity
college R1b1c7 is scarcely present in NE Ulster at levels similar to those
of
Munster or Leinster.


My whole point is that the assumption of a continuous passing down of DNA
from father to son is flawed, and implies a gross underestimation of the
impact of NPE's.


5. I personally have no idea yet how, why or when R1b1c7 came to Scotland.
For
all I know it could have originated somewhere in Scotland and since it's
heaviest in the lowlands, that's a more likely possibility. Even if it did

originate in Ireland I have no idea how or when it came to Scotland. And I
doubt
at this point it's possible to attempt to associate the DNA with a
specific
tribe or territory.

As I've pointed out before, the population of Argyll as reported from 1901
census figures was only 1.6% of the population of Scotland. So perhaps you
could explain what you mean by heaviest, in the context of population
density.


6. And I doubt at this point it's possible to attempt to associate the DNA
with a specific
tribe or territory.

The Ulster Heritage site seems to be making progress in this regard. Their
O'Cathain grouping is particularly interesting.

Of interest is that the Ewing modal, notwithstanding its distinct
differences from the Ui Niall modal, is closer to the O Cathain grouping by
Ulster Heritage than it is to the general M222+ project participants. Any
ideas on what, if anything, this means?

7. Surnames in Scotland seem to have been very fluid. Black (Surnames of
Scotland) mentions visiting a man who went by one surname ten years
previously but
when visited again had taken a different surname because, he said, he moved

over the hill. That's somewhat similar to the well known parttaker
syndrome
where people just assumed the surname of the local chieftains. NPEs in
Scotland of this sort are probably the norm, not unusual events.

Yes, that is a problem. I think Black gives some 30+ variants of MacEwan,
including MCain and MacEwing. So perhaps you should expand your Anradan
Surname list.

8. The original McDonalds in Scotland were descendants of Somerled (R1a).
Who
knows what the Dal Riata clans were prior to that? They were probably a
mixture of a lot of different DNA. All they have is a vague Scot modal
which
appears to match quite a few "Dal Riata" clan surnames and it is not
R1b1c7.
And according to John McEwan who discovered the modal, it hardly appears in

Ireland.

All you can validly claim to know about Somerled's DNA is that the majority
of his offspring are now R1a. Somerled's haplogroup isn't known. What I'm
saying is that you cannot dismiss the possibility that Somerled was R1b1c7,
due to the effect of NPE's.


9.Some archeologists, mostly notably Ewan Campbell, do not believe there
ever
was a migration of Scots from NE Ireland to Dal Riata in Scotland (Were the

Scots Irish?). He thinks the tale of the sons of Erc was just another
faked
origin story. Instead he sees a population common to both NE Ireland and
Dal
Riatic Scotland. Neither population migrated en masse to the other
location.


Some genealogists, notably Niall Campbell, 10th Duke of Argyll, would
disagree (if he were still alive).


I'll check the McDonald site from time to time so that I can send you the
link.


Sandy















-----Original Message-----
From:
[mailto:] On Behalf Of
Sent: 01 December 2008 02:07
To:
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency

In a message dated 11/29/2008 5:41:32 A.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

This seems quite relevant to me in considering for instance the DNA of
purportedly Dalriadic descendants. In particular, the roughly 10% R1b1c7
found in Clan McDonald would seem to be about what one would expect if they
were originally R1b1c7.


I have some questions about the 10% of McDonalds who are R1b1c7.

How do we know which McDonalds they are? McDonald was also a common
surname
in Ireland during the 17th century (it occurs throughout the 1659 census).

Secondly, why do we assume that all McDonalds in Scotland are connected to
the Argyllshire/western Isles McDonalds? The surname could have arisen
independently in any number of locations in Scotland with no links between
origins.

I haven't looked at the R1b1c7 McDonalds in the project but I have to
wonder
how many are linked with definite locations for their ancestors?

Third, there are several possibilities for a fairly late introduction of
R1b1c7 into western Scotland. One is the Columban monastery at Iona. A
second
is the McDonald legend that an early 16th century McDonald chieftain
married
an O Cathain from Ulster and she brought with her to Scotland a very large
and unusual retinue of fighting men from Ulster, from which, Hugh McDonald
claimed in the 17th century, arose a score of surnames in Scotland.

If the original DNA of Dal Riata was R1b1c7 we might expect to find R1b1c7
dominant in the areas once controlled in NE Ulster by the Ulaidh, Dal
Fiatach
or Dal Riata. That is their origin story (ie, the sons of Erc of the Irish

Dal Riata founding the Dal Riata of Scotland). Yet in Ireland R1b1c7 is
not
strong in NE Ulster. In fact according to the DNA gradient map of Trinity
college R1b1c7 is scarcely present in NE Ulster at levels similar to those
of
Munster or Leinster.

I personally have no idea yet how, why or when R1b1c7 came to Scotland.
For
all I know it could have originated somewhere in Scotland and since it's
heaviest in the lowlands, that's a more likely possibility. Even if it did

originate in Ireland I have no idea how or when it came to Scotland. And I
doubt
at this point it's possible to attempt to associate the DNA with a
specific
tribe or territory.

Surnames in Scotland seem to have been very fluid. Black (Surnames of
Scotland) mentions visiting a man who went by one surname ten years
previously but
when visited again had taken a different surname because, he said, he moved

over the hill. That's somewhat similar to the well known parttaker
syndrome
where people just assumed the surname of the local chieftains. NPEs in
Scotland of this sort are probably the norm, not unusual events.

The original McDonalds in Scotland were descendants of Somerled (R1a). Who

knows what the Dal Riata clans were prior to that? They were probably a
mixture of a lot of different DNA. All they have is a vague Scot modal
which
appears to match quite a few "Dal Riata" clan surnames and it is not
R1b1c7.
And according to John McEwan who discovered the modal, it hardly appears in

Ireland.

Some archeologists, mostly notably Ewan Campbell, do not believe there ever

was a migration of Scots from NE Ireland to Dal Riata in Scotland (Were the

Scots Irish?). He thinks the tale of the sons of Erc was just another
faked
origin story. Instead he sees a population common to both NE Ireland and
Dal
Riatic Scotland. Neither population migrated en masse to the other
location.


John








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