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Archiver > DNA-R1B1C7 > 2008-11 > 1228112671


From: "Donald Milligan" <>
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 22:24:31 -0800
References: <c2c.4b99edb4.36649580@aol.com><BAY119-W25377ED4DC4AAF39190258D5010@phx.gbl><49336F7C.6080102@aol.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "John McLaughlin" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [R-M222] NPE Frequency


> <Yes John,
> I have read your hypothesis before on the possibility of M222 starting
> on the continent
>
> That's not my hypothesis. That's what O'Rahilly had to say (Early Irish
> History and Mythology). I have mentioned it in connection with R1b1c7
> because it's a widely known theory in Irish pre-history. According to
> O'Rahilly, the Q-Celts of which there were two groups, northern and
> southern, were relative latecomers to Ireland. The southern group were
> the Eoghanachta; the northern group were the Connachta (an earlier
> tribal name from which later arose the Ui Neill of NW Ireland).
> According to O'Rahilly, both of these groups came to Ireland from Gaul.
> O'Rahilly found no evidence of the Connachta in Ptolemy's map of
> Ireland which is probably one of the reasons he said what he did.
>
> What we have found is R1b1c7 correlates strongly with the Connachta
> and their later offshoot, the Ui Neill. The Trinity study made that
> clear with their references to Nial 'of the Nine Hostages', the ancestor
> of the Ui Neill in NW Ireland. Anyone who seriously spends time
> checking the DNA associated with the known chieftains of the Ui Neill
> and Connachta will come to the same conclusion.
>
> On the other hand, the DNA experts (except for Dr. Faux) seem to be of
> the unanimous opinion that R1b1c7 originated in Ireland. I once asked
> Ken Knordtfeldt why he was so sure of that and he said "that's where the
> haplotypes are."
>
> O'Rahilly's theories are well known and have been around for a long
> time. So it's natural to put them to the test via DNA. Irish
> researchers are also interested in testing the validity of tribal
> connections found in the ancient genealogical manuscripts of Ireland.
> So it's not just O'Rahilly and his theories we're dealing with.
>
> One bit of genealogical folklore seems to have bitten the dust thanks to
> DNA testing. Irish pedigrees link the Airgialla to the same stock as
> the Connachta and Ui Neill. But none of the major chieftains of the
> Airgialla testable today in terms of surnames have many if any R1b1c7
> DNA. That includes the Maguires, McMahons of Monaghan and O'Hanlons.
>
> O'Rahilly put out a lot of theories on tribes all over Ireland, not just
> the Ui Neill. And he wasn't always right about everything. But he did
> nail the Airgialla descent as a fabrication. I have no idea if he's
> right about the Connachta or not at this point. But I also don't think
> the DNA "experts" have everything right either.
>
> For those on this list who don't believe there is any tribal basis to
> DNA whatsoever I would advise concentrating on a known part of Ireland
> (Donegal) where the leading chieftains are well known from history. The
> major families were the O'Donnells, O'Gallaghers, O'Boyles and
> O'Dohertys. In their territories were several other well known families
> with a similar Ui Neill descent (McLaughlins and O'Brollaghans). Would
> it be a great surprise to non believers in a tribal descent that every
> one of these families is a majority R1b1c7? Don't take my word for it;
> verify it for yourself if you're not convinced by the Trinity study.
> These families are all said to descend from Nial from one of two sons,
> Conal gulban and Owen.
>
> We could take the O'Dohertys as a case study. I'm using them simply
> because they have the largest surname project in the NW of Ireland.
>
> G haplogroup (1)
> I haplogroup (4)
> R1a haplogroup (2)
> J2 haplogroup (2)
> R1b1c7 haplogroup (37)
> R1b group 2 (2)
> R1b group 3 (4)
> R1b Group (2)
>
> At this stage of the project there were 54 Dohertys tested. The G
> haplogroup testee was a Daughtry, which may or may not be the same
> surname. It is also important to realize that not all Dohertys were
> from Donegal. At least one other sept in the south of Ireland (O
> Dubhartach) also had a surname similarly anglicised (O Dorrity, Doherty).
>
> So 68.5% of all Dohertys tested in this project are R1b1c7.
> Furthermore most of these R1b1c7 Dohertys have some unique "Doherty"
> markers that tie them together as related. Obviously we do have some
> Doherty NPEs in the group, especially the I and R1a haplogroups. The
> current O Dochartaigh chieftain is R1b1c7 (a test was taken by his
> brother, both living in Spain).
>
> We do not know who the non R1b1c7 Dohertys are in the R1b groups. They
> also could be Donegal NPEs; or just as likely members of some other
> Doherty clan in Ireland like the O Dubhartaighs.
>
> Our McLaughlin R1b1c7 situation is more complex because there are
> more possible origins for the surname in Ireland and Scotland. But our
> single largest group of Mclaughlins are R1b1c7 and all share some unique
> "McLaughlin" markers that show they are related.
>
> The McLaughlins and O'Dohertys share an ancestor in Nial 'of the Nine
> Hostages.' I personally don't have a lot of faith in the historicity of
> Nial but I don't think there's any question of their common descent from
> someone who lived at about the time of Nial. Does this constitute a
> tribe? As far as I'm concerned it does, the tribe in question being the
> Ui Neill. A little further back in time (probably) we have surnames
> connected to the Connachta (O'Beirne, McGovern, O'Reilly, O'Rourke,
> etc). I don't have an exact breakdown on these DNA projects but the
> samples I've seen are also R1b1c7.
>
> I do not think the "tribal" thing can be carried back much further
> than this and it's completely limited to Ireland.
>
> In Scotland the R1b1c7 matches are never (that I've seen) concentrated
> in one surname as they are in Ireland. I haven't seen a single Scottish
> "clan" that is mainly R1b1c7 or had R1b1c7 chieftains. Maybe there's
> one out there somewhere but I haven't seen it. Instead the matches
> appear in a lot of different surnames, most with no known connections
> between them. I would put this down to the destruction of whatever
> tribal unity existed in Scotland prior to the invasions of the
> Anglo-Saxons, Vikings and Normans. I think the reason we're seeing a
> strong continuity in Ireland in certain tribal surnames is the tribes in
> Ireland survived for centuries and most were still intact at the British
> conquest in the late 1500s. The chieftains were appointed because they
> were related to the previous chieftains and no outside force was ever
> able to destroy that tribal network.
>
> The latest Trinity study remarked that this tribal continuity in DNA was
> stronger in the Ui Neill and Connachta of the north than in the southern
> Irish tribes who showed much more diversity in DNA. But even so these
> southern tribes show large groups of related members sharing a common
> ancestor. Why that might be I do not know unless the southern Irish
> tribes were much older than the northern ones with more time to take in
> non related interlopers.
>
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> R1b1c7 Research and Links:
>
> http://clanmaclochlainn.com/R1b1c7/
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